Metatrends Podcast

we have Aviva wolmer who is a chair out we have Aviva wolmer who is a chair out of Atlanta and I just want to thank you of Atlanta and I just want to thank you for joining us here Aviva and you know for joining us here Aviva and you know sharing the wisdom that you uh that sharing the wisdom that you uh that you've accumulated over all these years you've accumulated over all these years so so want you to tell us a little bit so so want you to tell us a little bit about your background and like where you about your background and like where you at now and the way you want to go that at now and the way you want to go that type of thing absolutely thank you so type of thing absolutely thank you so much for having me um so my background much for having me um so my background actually before I became a vage chair I actually before I became a vage chair I was a vistage member I was CEO of a was a vistage member I was CEO of a family business and when I became a CEO family business and when I became a CEO I knew I didn't know what I didn't know I knew I didn't know what I didn't know so I better surround myself with people so I better surround myself with people who might um and that's where I found who might um and that's where I found vistage and their CEO peer groups so vistage and their CEO peer groups so what I do now is I lead two peer groups what I do now is I lead two peer groups of CEOs and one for key Executives um of CEOs and one for key Executives um through vistage these groups are a through vistage these groups are a chance for driven CEOs who are really chance for driven CEOs who are really open to growth and learning they uh open to growth and learning they uh strive for it to better their businesses strive for it to better their businesses and take their businesses to the next and take their businesses to the next level uh come together in a group level uh come together in a group environment to share experiences ideas environment to share experiences ideas um challenges they're having and to um challenges they're having and to learn from one another um so it's a learn from one another um so it's a really great group it is a group that um really great group it is a group that um doesn't change every month the same CEOs doesn't change every month the same CEOs really get to know each other and each really get to know each other and each other's businesses and become an other's businesses and become an Advisory board for one another um yeah I Advisory board for one another um yeah I think one of the secret ingredients is think one of the secret ingredients is like there's a real there's a bunch of like there's a real there's a bunch of magical things about this as far as I'm magical things about this as far as I'm concerned you know I became a cheer 16 concerned you know I became a cheer 16 years ago then was a member and is now a years ago then was a member and is now a speaker of 16 years and so let me Let Me speaker of 16 years and so let me Let Me Lend some statistics behind what you're Lend some statistics behind what you're talking about there's a study I've been talking about there's a study I've been doing for the last three years and the doing for the last three years and the average revenue invisage is 65 million average revenue invisage is 65 million the average valuation is just under 40 the average valuation is just under 40 million how much more could the company million how much more could the company be worth if we fix what's wrong with it be worth if we fix what's wrong with it is 13 A5 million but here's the is 13 A5 million but here's the fascinating thing non vistage members fascinating thing non vistage members are nowhere near that large the body of are nowhere near that large the body of uh knowledge around them is much larger uh knowledge around them is much larger because I instead of having 3,000 or so because I instead of having 3,000 or so case studies and vistage I have about case studies and vistage I have about 40,000 non vistage members but they 40,000 non vistage members but they don't stack up all that well and I think don't stack up all that well and I think it comes down to that humility thing you it comes down to that humility thing you were really talking about there I think were really talking about there I think what happens is when you sign the what happens is when you sign the documents to join vistage what you're documents to join vistage what you're really doing is you're making a silent really doing is you're making a silent declaration one I don't know everything declaration one I don't know everything and two uh I'm committing to a lifetime and two uh I'm committing to a lifetime of learning and as soon as you do those of learning and as soon as you do those two things through the lens of humility two things through the lens of humility which bear in mind is in shorter and which bear in mind is in shorter and shorter Supply these days because of shorter Supply these days because of social media and I I guess having a a social media and I I guess having a a computer in your pocket gives you like a computer in your pocket gives you like a false sense of your own superiority but false sense of your own superiority but within vistage it's really it's a within vistage it's really it's a humility path so and it's almost like uh humility path so and it's almost like uh you know toll step programs like to say you know toll step programs like to say get humble or get humbled so and I think get humble or get humbled so and I think they that maybe the members understand they that maybe the members understand how much risk they're actually taking how much risk they're actually taking and how important that is on some level and how important that is on some level to society so what they need to do is be to society so what they need to do is be smarter about it and partly being smarter about it and partly being smarter is like it's it's almost like smarter is like it's it's almost like the only way to after a certain level of the only way to after a certain level of development the only way to be a better development the only way to be a better tennis player is to play tennis with tennis player is to play tennis with better tennis players and that to me is better tennis players and that to me is what vistage is from a business what vistage is from a business perspective yeah so it's interesting perspective yeah so it's interesting that you say that because um what I find that you say that because um what I find is it's very hard as a leader um to have is it's very hard as a leader um to have a safe place to go right with your a safe place to go right with your leadership team it's hard to be leadership team it's hard to be vulnerable um if you're CEO you really vulnerable um if you're CEO you really have no one in your company because even have no one in your company because even you're Executives you have to have an you're Executives you have to have an ear about you with even if you should be ear about you with even if you should be and are a vulnerable leader um so to and are a vulnerable leader um so to have a place you can go where you can be have a place you can go where you can be open about what you know you don't know open about what you know you don't know talk about your concerns your fears most talk about your concerns your fears most CEOs are really lonely at the top and CEOs are really lonely at the top and they don't even realize that other they don't even realize that other business leaders have the same problems business leaders have the same problems they have the biggest aha moment that I they have the biggest aha moment that I get after almost everybody attends their get after almost everybody attends their first meeting is I didn't realize I first meeting is I didn't realize I wasn't alone oh my gosh all these other wasn't alone oh my gosh all these other Business Leaders have similar things I'm Business Leaders have similar things I'm dealing with and how great it is and dealing with and how great it is and they're all from different indust and they're all from different indust and backgrounds different times of lengths backgrounds different times of lengths of CEOs I mean all kinds of different so of CEOs I mean all kinds of different so much diversity within the group but to much diversity within the group but to realize there's that commonality that realize there's that commonality that they all kind of feel a little bit they all kind of feel a little bit lonely at the top and that the problems lonely at the top and that the problems and challenges are similar it's just the and challenges are similar it's just the different different experiences and solutions that are experiences and solutions that are different which allows people honestly different which allows people honestly to stop Reinventing the wheel and to to stop Reinventing the wheel and to shortcut a lot of processes there's no shortcut a lot of processes there's no reason to have to be as a leader the reason to have to be as a leader the person to think of everything thing person to think of everything thing instead um to bring in ideas from instead um to bring in ideas from speakers from other members you can speakers from other members you can really you take your business to new really you take your business to new heights quickly which I think is what heights quickly which I think is what you're talking about the statistics um I you're talking about the statistics um I really see these companies grow faster really see these companies grow faster be valued higher um because they're not be valued higher um because they're not trying to figure it out alone yeah it's trying to figure it out alone yeah it's almost like like what's what's the hey almost like like what's what's the hey Mike thanks for joining us the uh the Mike thanks for joining us the uh the this is a Viva Walmart so we're just this is a Viva Walmart so we're just going around a background and kind of going around a background and kind of like what's uh what's some of the like what's uh what's some of the benefits of being in vistage like you benefits of being in vistage like you know to me it's there's a thing about know to me it's there's a thing about how you have to have a place where you how you have to have a place where you can drop your battle arm so I was having can drop your battle arm so I was having a conversation with a person who's been a conversation with a person who's been a lifelong employee high level sea-level a lifelong employee high level sea-level executive of publicly traded companies executive of publicly traded companies and we discussed about how it's and we discussed about how it's basically a battle up environment and basically a battle up environment and it's a very lonely existence because you it's a very lonely existence because you can be like knocked down from your can be like knocked down from your pedestal at any moment for any reason pedestal at any moment for any reason and not always honest reasons so there's and not always honest reasons so there's like kind of a built-in dishonesty to uh like kind of a built-in dishonesty to uh publicly traded companies where people publicly traded companies where people cannot be authentic because it can be cannot be authentic because it can be used against them wait are you are you used against them wait are you are you talking about publicly traded companies talking about publicly traded companies or government service that I'm in I or government service that I'm in I would IM is the same thing all right so would IM is the same thing all right so so the the idea here is is that when you so the the idea here is is that when you have a space like a vistage is a safe have a space like a vistage is a safe space because of E I don't know if you space because of E I don't know if you noticed this with yourself but I never noticed this with yourself but I never felt normal I got one a even as a little felt normal I got one a even as a little kid I always knew I was abnormal and the kid I always knew I was abnormal and the first time I ever felt normal was my first time I ever felt normal was my very first vistage meeting I looked very first vistage meeting I looked around the room I was like oh these guys around the room I was like oh these guys are circus freaks just like me you know are circus freaks just like me you know like I've got a group of circus freaks like I've got a group of circus freaks now you get what I mean I do it's funny now you get what I mean I do it's funny yeah yeah I think what's interesting is yeah yeah I think what's interesting is you know just how unalone we are and how you know just how unalone we are and how safe that space is so everything in safe that space is so everything in vistage is highly confidential and so vistage is highly confidential and so people open up about everything and they people open up about everything and they bring their whole self to the meeting so bring their whole self to the meeting so it's not just business right we're not it's not just business right we're not just talking about strategy um they're just talking about strategy um they're talking about things they're dealing talking about things they're dealing with even in their home life and their with even in their home life and their personal lives right kids were dealing personal lives right kids were dealing with horrible diseases or mental health with horrible diseases or mental health issues right theyve nowhere in their issues right theyve nowhere in their teams that they feel comfortable teams that they feel comfortable typically talking about some of these typically talking about some of these other challenges um in addition to oh my other challenges um in addition to oh my gosh I'm leading this company we're gosh I'm leading this company we're facing a major thing like Co and I have facing a major thing like Co and I have no clue what I'm doing and can I tell my no clue what I'm doing and can I tell my company members that I have absolutely company members that I have absolutely no clue this is a challenge I've never no clue this is a challenge I've never faced before um you know how do show up faced before um you know how do show up and part of you know even what you learn and part of you know even what you learn in vage is how to be vulnerable in ways in vage is how to be vulnerable in ways that are helpful to your leadership team that are helpful to your leadership team when you take that back um because you when you take that back um because you can see how others have done it and how can see how others have done it and how it wasn't scary or hard um so it's just it wasn't scary or hard um so it's just a great way to test out things you're a great way to test out things you're thinking about doing in your company um thinking about doing in your company um but it's all about diving deep we touch but it's all about diving deep we touch on the surface level stuff like how did on the surface level stuff like how did you design this meeting but really it is you design this meeting but really it is about what are the things that keep you about what are the things that keep you up at night um what are the limiting up at night um what are the limiting beliefs that are holding you back what's beliefs that are holding you back what's keeping your team stuck from really keeping your team stuck from really achieving your vision and your goals um achieving your vision and your goals um and really diving deep to figure out and really diving deep to figure out what the bigger issues are that are what the bigger issues are that are keeping you from achieving what you keeping you from achieving what you really want to accomplish which for the really want to accomplish which for the C CEOs that I work with and the leaders C CEOs that I work with and the leaders I work with it's big dreams I don't work I work with it's big dreams I don't work with people who like the status quo but with people who like the status quo but love to grow and learn I work with love to grow and learn I work with people who want to do something with people who want to do something with their businesses they want to take it to their businesses they want to take it to the next level they want to disrupt the next level they want to disrupt their Industries they want to grow their Industries they want to grow rapidly um they are looking at doing rapidly um they are looking at doing something big and so they need something big and so they need encouragement ideas support getting past encouragement ideas support getting past the things they're stuck on to get there the things they're stuck on to get there because it's big where they're going and because it's big where they're going and what they're doing yeah because I'm glad what they're doing yeah because I'm glad youve said that because I think it also youve said that because I think it also can be a trap in the peer advisory world can be a trap in the peer advisory world to create like a seminar club or to create like a seminar club or something like that where they're not something like that where they're not pushing each other there's even a thing pushing each other there's even a thing I've noticed the difference between I've noticed the difference between vistage and some of the other CEO vistage and some of the other CEO organizations that are more social organizations that are more social they're not about pushing each other they're not about pushing each other they're really more about not being they're really more about not being alone which is which is beneficial but alone which is which is beneficial but the pushing each other thing I think is the pushing each other thing I think is really important because the very thing really important because the very thing standing in the way the future growth of standing in the way the future growth of their business is them so and I would their business is them so and I would argue the best way to actually raise argue the best way to actually raise accountability is to hold the other accountability is to hold the other people accountable to them improving people accountable to them improving their business and then they repay the their business and then they repay the favor in favor in Spades Like Me Out To The Woodshed and Spades Like Me Out To The Woodshed and slap me around out of love you know what slap me around out of love you know what I mean well on radical cander and I mean well on radical cander and challenge with compassion are two of the challenge with compassion are two of the fundamental behaviors we practice in our fundamental behaviors we practice in our group um it's all about bringing it but group um it's all about bringing it but um you know even within vistage it's um you know even within vistage it's very easy and this is why I like vage very easy and this is why I like vage more than a lot of the other peer group more than a lot of the other peer group environments is because there is a chair environments is because there is a chair like myself who facilitates it like myself who facilitates it professionally to make sure we're going professionally to make sure we're going deep and that we're actually addressing deep and that we're actually addressing the stuff the one to call out in the the stuff the one to call out in the meeting hey I know you checked in today meeting hey I know you checked in today and you said you don't have an issue but and you said you don't have an issue but you are completely not talking about you are completely not talking about this one thing that if we as a group this one thing that if we as a group really dove into would be a game changer really dove into would be a game changer for you how come you didn't bring that for you how come you didn't bring that up so people can't hide if you have a up so people can't hide if you have a good strong group and a good strong good strong group and a good strong chair um but you also have to watch out chair um but you also have to watch out for even as a chair and a leader um for even as a chair and a leader um letting it get too social not being the letting it get too social not being the one to ask the Deep questions um that's one to ask the Deep questions um that's why with my CEOs I love to do oneone why with my CEOs I love to do oneone coaching because I learn things in that coaching because I learn things in that that I don't see in the rooms people that I don't see in the rooms people might be putting airs on still in the might be putting airs on still in the room yeah and I don't let it slide I room yeah and I don't let it slide I have a member who is really struggling have a member who is really struggling with things that it wasn't coming on the with things that it wasn't coming on the check-ins and tell right in front of the check-ins and tell right in front of the group what are we not talking about what group what are we not talking about what about this piece we talk about one and about this piece we talk about one and what are you're not talking about I like what are you're not talking about I like it right like what are we not addressing it right like what are we not addressing and bringing to the room because if and bringing to the room because if we're not bringing our full self and the we're not bringing our full self and the things we're really dealing with you can things we're really dealing with you can still put on ears and then you don't still put on ears and then you don't really make a difference so but here's a really make a difference so but here's a question how how do you go about making question how how do you go about making sure because you just mentioned and I sure because you just mentioned and I apologize that sometimes you speak and apologize that sometimes you speak and I'm looking down that's because I'm I'm looking down that's because I'm writing um writing um you mentioned you need to have a strong you mentioned you need to have a strong group how do you go about getting that group how do you go about getting that strong group in a vistage group are you strong group in a vistage group are you you actively recruit or is it more of you actively recruit or is it more of there was a network of these folks there was a network of these folks already because there's certain criteria already because there's certain criteria you have to meet to be in it already I you have to meet to be in it already I actively recruit and I have criteria um actively recruit and I have criteria um so it is an interview process to get in so it is an interview process to get in a group it's not just hey I want to be a group it's not just hey I want to be in a vistage group doesn't want to have in a vistage group doesn't want to have an opening um I'm very careful about who an opening um I'm very careful about who I let in um so different chairs and I let in um so different chairs and different groups have different Dynamics different groups have different Dynamics and the chairs have different filtering and the chairs have different filtering criteria for me I look for a very criteria for me I look for a very specific psychographic profile um which specific psychographic profile um which is the driven leaders I was talking is the driven leaders I was talking about before who want to do something um about before who want to do something um so I'm not looking for a leader who you so I'm not looking for a leader who you know wants incremental growth I want know wants incremental growth I want someone who really is trying to make a someone who really is trying to make a difference in their business become a difference in their business become a different leader for their teams do different leader for their teams do something big with the companies after I something big with the companies after I have that profile I look for as much have that profile I look for as much diversity as possible in my groups um I diversity as possible in my groups um I want people from different backgrounds want people from different backgrounds different experiences so I different different experiences so I different ages of leaders in the groups I have ages of leaders in the groups I have different levels of experience someone different levels of experience someone who just became a CEO yesterday or is who just became a CEO yesterday or is about to be promoted in three or four about to be promoted in three or four months to one who's you know about to months to one who's you know about to exit and been doing it for 30 years um I exit and been doing it for 30 years um I want people who graduated college didn't want people who graduated college didn't graduate college as a leader Founders graduate college as a leader Founders and hired CEOs eat companies public uh and hired CEOs eat companies public uh nonprofit different Industries obviously nonprofit different Industries obviously it's hard to get all of those things in it's hard to get all of those things in a group of 16 people but I look for a group of 16 people but I look for amongst that group is much diversity amongst that group is much diversity because if you have that profile small because if you have that profile small businesses and large I know some groups businesses and large I know some groups like to say oh I want to be all around like to say oh I want to be all around the same Revenue size I think that's the same Revenue size I think that's missing something a smaller company missing something a smaller company thinks about things differently and is thinks about things differently and is scrappier which gives ideas to larger scrappier which gives ideas to larger companies who have so much structure and companies who have so much structure and process the structure and process is process the structure and process is great for the smaller companies who may great for the smaller companies who may not have that yet so the more not have that yet so the more perspectives in the room around the same perspectives in the room around the same challenges that's how you get the real challenges that's how you get the real growth and depth so I really look for growth and depth so I really look for who's Miss missing at the table and what who's Miss missing at the table and what type of personalities are missing at the type of personalities are missing at the table um if you have that mix that's how table um if you have that mix that's how you get a really strong a player group you get a really strong a player group and then you got to challenge them you and then you got to challenge them you got to get them vulnerable you got to got to get them vulnerable you got to make sure they're bringing the Deep make sure they're bringing the Deep stuff um and you know help them be the stuff um and you know help them be the best version of the sell themselves in best version of the sell themselves in the the room it's awesome because you know I room it's awesome because you know I think I think one of the challenges this think I think one of the challenges this just comes naturally to human beings just comes naturally to human beings like from uh the studies I've done in like from uh the studies I've done in neuroscience and studies of human nature neuroscience and studies of human nature is we tend to gravitate towards what we is we tend to gravitate towards what we like and we avoid what we suck at we like and we avoid what we suck at we tend to hate what we suck at and yet tend to hate what we suck at and yet that's the thing where we get the that's the thing where we get the greatest amount of growth uh in whether greatest amount of growth uh in whether it's valuation or growth as a human it's valuation or growth as a human being or what have you because you know being or what have you because you know um Azie gantang was a very famous chair um Azie gantang was a very famous chair when I first started 16 years ago I mean when I first started 16 years ago I mean I might have heard 300 quotes from this I might have heard 300 quotes from this man and he was a he was a former monk uh man and he was a he was a former monk uh and he said that uh sharing was the most and he said that uh sharing was the most spiritually rewarding work he's done and spiritually rewarding work he's done and the most exhausting work he's ever done the most exhausting work he's ever done so but one of the things he said to me so but one of the things he said to me was um that people join visits to grow was um that people join visits to grow their business what they get out of it their business what they get out of it is personal growth and then their is personal growth and then their business business Grows Right so but the Dilemma is so Grows Right so but the Dilemma is so they they I think it I think well will they they I think it I think well will you tell me your opinion on this I think you tell me your opinion on this I think it takes about six months for a member it takes about six months for a member to become a member because they're not to become a member because they're not used to being vulnerable like even the used to being vulnerable like even the spouses don't really totally understand spouses don't really totally understand what the business like they the bus the what the business like they the bus the spouse might understand what the spouse might understand what the business is about business is about but unless they work in the business but unless they work in the business with the spouse they really don't with the spouse they really don't understand the business you know what I understand the business you know what I mean what I'll tell you is different mean what I'll tell you is different people can get there faster or slower people can get there faster or slower based on their background and based on their background and experiences and usually limiting beliefs experiences and usually limiting beliefs from experience is growing up so some from experience is growing up so some people open up pretty quickly they watch people open up pretty quickly they watch others be vulnerable in the meetings and others be vulnerable in the meetings and they're like okay I see the value in they're like okay I see the value in this and in meeting to they're sharing this and in meeting to they're sharing deep stuff others really hold things deep stuff others really hold things close to the chest and it takes coaching close to the chest and it takes coaching sessions and time really helping them sessions and time really helping them see and sharing small bits and you're see and sharing small bits and you're right six months seven months then right six months seven months then they're really finally diving deep um they're really finally diving deep um that's one of the things I love about that's one of the things I love about the coaching sessions is you can get the coaching sessions is you can get them to more vulnerable with one-on-one them to more vulnerable with one-on-one faster and then you can start faster and then you can start encouraging them to share things that encouraging them to share things that you think will help that process um but you think will help that process um but yeah it really is dependent on the yeah it really is dependent on the individual their personality type and individual their personality type and their background um you know some people their background um you know some people grew up at the table sharing everything grew up at the table sharing everything they talk about it all and others the they talk about it all and others the dinner table they're told you don't dinner table they're told you don't discuss anything that is possibly discuss anything that is possibly controversial we sit here and eat nice controversial we sit here and eat nice and frm and proper and talk about only and frm and proper and talk about only the good things from our day right so the good things from our day right so depending which environment you grew up depending which environment you grew up in you are more likely to be willing to in you are more likely to be willing to be vulnerable faster versus have to put be vulnerable faster versus have to put on the perception that everything's on the perception that everything's perfect um and so it takes time to perfect um and so it takes time to figure out who those individuals are and figure out who those individuals are and how to get them to you know like I said how to get them to you know like I said open up and be the best version of open up and be the best version of themselves that's going to get the most themselves that's going to get the most out of out of it maybe this was just because it wasn't it maybe this was just because it wasn't really my personality cuz when I did my really my personality cuz when I did my chair training the one one man in chair training the one one man in particular he said you were the most particular he said you were the most transparent person in the room and I transparent person in the room and I didn't even know what he was talking didn't even know what he was talking about so it was like uh so I guess that about so it was like uh so I guess that kind of flows out of me naturally but kind of flows out of me naturally but the ones who I struggled with especially the ones who I struggled with especially coaching were the ones that their battle coaching were the ones that their battle armor was hermetically sealed to their armor was hermetically sealed to their face like there was no difference in face like there was no difference in their mind between what they're their mind between what they're presenting to the world and what they presenting to the world and what they really are when there really is a really are when there really is a difference so they kind of don't know difference so they kind of don't know who they are those were the ones was who they are those were the ones was always more difficult for me to kind of always more difficult for me to kind of get them out there you know I don't know get them out there you know I don't know if maybe you uh with your experience the if maybe you uh with your experience the family office and all that stuff the uh family office and all that stuff the uh maybe you have a different experience maybe you have a different experience with that than I do maybe different with that than I do maybe different techniques to be honest some techniques to be honest some people's EO in away um some people's people's EO in away um some people's egos get in the way of them being able egos get in the way of them being able to be in a group um I have accidentally to be in a group um I have accidentally let people in right my interview process let people in right my interview process is pretty stringent but that doesn't is pretty stringent but that doesn't mean that you know there might be mean that you know there might be someone I think that their ego and their someone I think that their ego and their armor is um able to be you know chipped armor is um able to be you know chipped away at and sometimes that's just not away at and sometimes that's just not possible and so I have had to let possible and so I have had to let members go from groups who frankly members go from groups who frankly weren't ever going to open up um they weren't ever going to open up um they are just too close to the chest and are just too close to the chest and others you know it just takes some others you know it just takes some self-awareness um and helping them see self-awareness um and helping them see the things they may not be seeing um so the things they may not be seeing um so again it's really depending on the again it's really depending on the individual but yeah some people honestly individual but yeah some people honestly they're not meant to be in a group they're not meant to be in a group environment um they they don't have like environment um they they don't have like get the armor down um which is why we get the armor down um which is why we interview and we're so particular interview and we're so particular because if you can't match the behaviors because if you can't match the behaviors of a high performing group um you'll of a high performing group um you'll bring the group down just frankly um so bring the group down just frankly um so one of the things um David fredman he's one of the things um David fredman he's an incredible speaker on culture um in an incredible speaker on culture um in general and high performing cultures and general and high performing cultures and um I've adopted his concept of um I've adopted his concept of fundamental behaviors within my groups fundamental behaviors within my groups and we've defined the behaviors that set and we've defined the behaviors that set the culture in tone for our group that the culture in tone for our group that if you are an AP performing group you if you are an AP performing group you are living by those behaviors and we are living by those behaviors and we talk about them on a regular basis to talk about them on a regular basis to make sure we living up to them um make sure we living up to them um nobody's perfect no group's perfect but nobody's perfect no group's perfect but we talk about what we want to be and we talk about what we want to be and what we strive to be um to make sure we what we strive to be um to make sure we are staying on top of our game and so are staying on top of our game and so that is behaviors like making sure that that is behaviors like making sure that you're bringing your whole self or that you're bringing your whole self or that you're bringing speaking with ratable you're bringing speaking with ratable Pander that you are challenging with Pander that you are challenging with compassion um that you're having fun compassion um that you're having fun because if it's not fun you don't want because if it's not fun you don't want to show up right um you know but that it to show up right um you know but that it is that environment that we all want to is that environment that we all want to be a part of um so there are people who be a part of um so there are people who those behaviors don't align and resonate those behaviors don't align and resonate and they're not a fit my and they're not a fit my group understood you're also doing group understood you're also doing something things some things outside something things some things outside vistage why don't you tell us a little vistage why don't you tell us a little bit about that yeah so um doing a lot of bit about that yeah so um doing a lot of the Executive coaching through vistage the Executive coaching through vistage and some of the coaching I've done in and some of the coaching I've done in the past um I also through my company the past um I also through my company and power leadership a lot of coaching and power leadership a lot of coaching um some of that leadership coaching a um some of that leadership coaching a lot of it is with CEOs or um key lot of it is with CEOs or um key Executives um but I found you know Executives um but I found you know individuals like you said that maybe individuals like you said that maybe have some of that armor up that didn't have some of that armor up that didn't know as they moved from employee to a know as they moved from employee to a leader how to let that go or how to leader how to let that go or how to transition into their definition of transition into their definition of leadership and really be the leader they leadership and really be the leader they wanted um that's a great place I love to wanted um that's a great place I love to coach um I also work with leadership coach um I also work with leadership teams to do workshops um really my teams to do workshops um really my purpose and where I like to live uh and purpose and where I like to live uh and I've really come into this in the past I've really come into this in the past year because I used to think I'll have year because I used to think I'll have all this knowledge from vistage because all this knowledge from vistage because I I mean the amount of resources and I I mean the amount of resources and knowledge around business that I have I knowledge around business that I have I could start a business and I would lead could start a business and I would lead it way better than I ever did as a CEO it way better than I ever did as a CEO prior um but that's actually not my prior um but that's actually not my purpose my purpose is to be the behind purpose my purpose is to be the behind the-scenes person who helps a leader the-scenes person who helps a leader achieve their big vision and dreams um achieve their big vision and dreams um not as an operator in their company but not as an operator in their company but the one who sees where they're getting the one who sees where they're getting stuff um where their liting beliefs are stuff um where their liting beliefs are holding them back maybe where their holding them back maybe where their leadership team is getting stuff which leadership team is getting stuff which is where I do facilitated workshops with is where I do facilitated workshops with a team um and help them get realigned a team um and help them get realigned figure out what's missing um from their figure out what's missing um from their the way their leadership team is working the way their leadership team is working together to get unstuck and move forward together to get unstuck and move forward and get back on track to those big and get back on track to those big dreams um I think every great leader dreams um I think every great leader needs somebody who believes in them needs somebody who believes in them challenges them and is going to help challenges them and is going to help push them forward and hold them push them forward and hold them accountable um and I like to consider accountable um and I like to consider myself that myself that person you know you what I love about person you know you what I love about that is I think when we look at it it's that is I think when we look at it it's like almost there's two things that came like almost there's two things that came up for me when you were talking about up for me when you were talking about this is one is um what is our strength this is one is um what is our strength can become our weakness like what I hear can become our weakness like what I hear regularly from chairs it's like Oh regularly from chairs it's like Oh They'll describe it sounds like a They'll describe it sounds like a compliment what I'm about to tell you compliment what I'm about to tell you but it's actually not one they'll talk but it's actually not one they'll talk about their membership especially at the about their membership especially at the key level where they'll use the term key level where they'll use the term solid tactician solid tactician like so solid tactician solid tactician like so solid they qualify to sit in the chairs solid they qualify to sit in the chairs they're sitting in however our human they're sitting in however our human beings one of our deals is our strength beings one of our deals is our strength becomes our weakness like is there becomes our weakness like is there always a little too close to the always a little too close to the grindstone in order for them to look grindstone in order for them to look over the Verizon around the corner that over the Verizon around the corner that are therefore they dooming themselves to are therefore they dooming themselves to middle management or can they actually middle management or can they actually have a vision to see what the future have a vision to see what the future looks like and then rally people around looks like and then rally people around them that's one the second one is is them that's one the second one is is that the um I had I had a member who was that the um I had I had a member who was it like he was actually in the it like he was actually in the construction industry and was convinced construction industry and was convinced that his bullying style of leadership that his bullying style of leadership was what was required to get to the next was what was required to get to the next level and it's almost like the growth level and it's almost like the growth came strong in the early phases and then came strong in the early phases and then incremental afterwards so how do you get incremental afterwards so how do you get that second layer of growth is that second layer of growth is recognizing that what got you here is it recognizing that what got you here is it necessarily going to get you to that necessarily going to get you to that next level and then how do you get them next level and then how do you get them get them to have f Faith around that get them to have f Faith around that that they can try and risk all of what that they can try and risk all of what they've built in order to get what they they've built in order to get what they want to be in the next the next phase of want to be in the next the next phase of their their growth yeah what's interesting I find growth yeah what's interesting I find about leadership development General is about leadership development General is most leadership development that exists most leadership development that exists out there is really designed for out there is really designed for mid-level managers um it's basic mid-level managers um it's basic training which every leader can use like training which every leader can use like I mean if a leader is not spending time I mean if a leader is not spending time trying to figure out how they trying to figure out how they communicate better no matter what communicate better no matter what position you're in uh you have a problem position you're in uh you have a problem from a growth perspective but there's a from a growth perspective but there's a a lot of things that are different in a lot of things that are different in leadership development once you get to leadership development once you get to that higher level um and there's not a that higher level um and there's not a lot of places to go to hear speakers who lot of places to go to hear speakers who are really talking about how you do are really talking about how you do something at that level um and that's something at that level um and that's what I love about vistage speakers what I love about vistage speakers because they really challenge you to because they really challenge you to think differently they dive into what think differently they dive into what you need to know as a CEO or as an you need to know as a CEO or as an executive not just the basic training executive not just the basic training you get middle level management you get middle level management leadership development um and that's the leadership development um and that's the piece that's even more challenged by piece that's even more challenged by your group because you're getting into your group because you're getting into subjects and areas that you just don't subjects and areas that you just don't get into on a daily basis um or for get into on a daily basis um or for attending a course um I don't know where attending a course um I don't know where anywhere else you can really get that anywhere else you can really get that kind of education and development as a kind of education and development as a you know High Lev leader um so that's you know High Lev leader um so that's what I really really love about the what I really really love about the vistage world and vistage exposes you to vistage world and vistage exposes you to so many things I am a better Coach um so many things I am a better Coach um and a leader because of vistage I even and a leader because of vistage I even when I was CEO I was a member for six when I was CEO I was a member for six years myself but when I am coaching years myself but when I am coaching others I have seen so many different others I have seen so many different things now through the people that I've things now through the people that I've have coached and work with through have coached and work with through vistage or the leadership teams that's vistage or the leadership teams that's how I can see what's missing right um how I can see what's missing right um because I've seen what worked for because I've seen what worked for somebody else or what didn't work for somebody else or what didn't work for somebody else and it helps me have the somebody else and it helps me have the better questions to ask my members to better questions to ask my members to make them better um so I think the make them better um so I think the longer you've been a chair if you're longer you've been a chair if you're really challenging yourself to keep really challenging yourself to keep integrating new ideas and to listen to integrating new ideas and to listen to other chairs about what they're doing other chairs about what they're doing that you're not doing um you really can that you're not doing um you really can take the group so much deeper um and I take the group so much deeper um and I start my care years of start my care years of chairing well it's it's one of my chairing well it's it's one of my experiences has been that chairing is experiences has been that chairing is like a wonderful filter for human beings like a wonderful filter for human beings like I know over 600 chairs now and I like I know over 600 chairs now and I met maybe five in my entire met maybe five in my entire speaking career and the deal that's a speaking career and the deal that's a pretty good ratio right there and most pretty good ratio right there and most of those five aren't chairs anymore of those five aren't chairs anymore anymore that you kind of can't survive anymore that you kind of can't survive as a cheer being that way at least I as a cheer being that way at least I don't understand how they could so it's don't understand how they could so it's how do how do I recognize how do I come how do how do I recognize how do I come from moral humility and then increase my from moral humility and then increase my knowledge base so that um like I can knowledge base so that um like I can surrender to the fact knowing that I surrender to the fact knowing that I will never Master my own mind it's just will never Master my own mind it's just impossible to do that as human beings impossible to do that as human beings but how can we sit there and stay on a but how can we sit there and stay on a cycle of let's call it epistemic cycle of let's call it epistemic humility where we're regularly trying to humility where we're regularly trying to sharpen the saw sharpen the sh sharpen sharpen the saw sharpen the sh sharpen the saw and I think part of that is we the saw and I think part of that is we can't assume we're already right what we can't assume we're already right what we have to do is say okay am I right have to do is say okay am I right question my answer answers as opposed to question my answer answers as opposed to and then kind of lead by example because and then kind of lead by example because I am seeing it even in vistage that I am seeing it even in vistage that people are getting uh let's say there's people are getting uh let's say there's a hardening to the hard left and the a hardening to the hard left and the hard right there's an IL liberalizing of hard right there's an IL liberalizing of the two where what I want to do is see the two where what I want to do is see if we can get people back towards the if we can get people back towards the center so this way they're not so center so this way they're not so morally certain about their position morally certain about their position when the stronger their political when the stronger their political opinion it's likelihood is the the more opinion it's likelihood is the the more incorrect they are about the position incorrect they are about the position because frankly truth is is um because frankly truth is is um is hard to attain it's complicated and is hard to attain it's complicated and it's boring so it's very difficult to it's boring so it's very difficult to find in the world so it's we have to find in the world so it's we have to strive for it not assume we already have strive for it not assume we already have it if you get my meaning absolutely uh it if you get my meaning absolutely uh one of my favorite things about being a one of my favorite things about being a chair and why I love it so much is that chair and why I love it so much is that while I am getting to add value and while I am getting to add value and helping my members right be it through helping my members right be it through coaching or other things I'm learning coaching or other things I'm learning constantly right I I was in the steel constantly right I I was in the steel industry most of my life that's what I industry most of my life that's what I knew now I know about so many Industries knew now I know about so many Industries challenges different businesses are challenges different businesses are facing um and then when you get into the facing um and then when you get into the issues of really understanding um like issues of really understanding um like you said about kind of that moral of you said about kind of that moral of humility um I'm hearing so many humility um I'm hearing so many perspectives that it's constantly perspectives that it's constantly shaping and reshaping my view of the shaping and reshaping my view of the world what needs to be done how to help world what needs to be done how to help but I got into a great conversation in a but I got into a great conversation in a one to one yesterday about how we need one to one yesterday about how we need to be courageous to make the change we to be courageous to make the change we wish to see in the world um and you know wish to see in the world um and you know and understanding what those changes are and understanding what those changes are and it was just a conversation of and it was just a conversation of questions back and forth about what we questions back and forth about what we were seeing um what could be different were seeing um what could be different how do we speak up for the things we see how do we speak up for the things we see that need to change um but it's it's not that need to change um but it's it's not about being right or knowing where you about being right or knowing where you stand it's about questioning everything stand it's about questioning everything including your own thoughts um I'm including your own thoughts um I'm bringing AI into my meetings and into my bringing AI into my meetings and into my groups and it's a lot of fun because you groups and it's a lot of fun because you know the 16 individuals we still only know the 16 individuals we still only know what we know and we're captured by know what we know and we're captured by our own EXP experiences and you know our own EXP experiences and you know after a one to one I run the script after a one to one I run the script through Ai and ask what were we not through Ai and ask what were we not thinking of what questions should I have thinking of what questions should I have asked that I didn't um and I will give asked that I didn't um and I will give those answers also out um to the person those answers also out um to the person I'm coaching so they don't just have our I'm coaching so they don't just have our two perspectives in the room or the two perspectives in the room or the group's perspective but what else are we group's perspective but what else are we not asking ourselves because we're still not asking ourselves because we're still insulated in our group's moral humility insulated in our group's moral humility right in our views how do we get past right in our views how do we get past just the VI that are you know sitting in just the VI that are you know sitting in the room um to make sure we're really the room um to make sure we're really radly thinking you sound like you're radly thinking you sound like you're You're embodying The Beginner's mind You're embodying The Beginner's mind it's like how do we stay at that State it's like how do we stay at that State and I think that keeps us in a state of and I think that keeps us in a state of epistemic humility there's one other epistemic humility there's one other thing that I I want to cover this came thing that I I want to cover this came up yesterday and when I was speaking in up yesterday and when I was speaking in Cleveland and um there's a thing about Cleveland and um there's a thing about how smart people learn from our own how smart people learn from our own mistakes really smart people learn from mistakes really smart people learn from other people's mistakes so one of the other people's mistakes so one of the few things I'd like to see change in in few things I'd like to see change in in the vistage ecosystem is you know like the vistage ecosystem is you know like let's say I was king for a day and I let's say I was king for a day and I could wave my magic wand over over one could wave my magic wand over over one thing it would be to add into the host thing it would be to add into the host presentation what's the stupidest thing presentation what's the stupidest thing you've ever done and this way what we do you've ever done and this way what we do is have like an agreement where I tell is have like an agreement where I tell you the stupidest thing I've ever done you the stupidest thing I've ever done you tell me the stupidest thing you've you tell me the stupidest thing you've ever done we shake hands and agree not ever done we shake hands and agree not to repeat each other's to repeat each other's stupidity I love it and I will be adding stupidity I love it and I will be adding it into the host presentations format it into the host presentations format because that's great I mean we've all because that's great I mean we've all made mistakes and you're right we have made mistakes and you're right we have to learn from our own but if we are not to learn from our own but if we are not talking about them um I Heard a speaker talking about them um I Heard a speaker once I can't remember who it was once I can't remember who it was actually I think about in Brett P um who actually I think about in Brett P um who talked about celebrating failures and talked about celebrating failures and that people should go back in their that people should go back in their companies um and part of their companies um and part of their celebrations when they do their celebrations when they do their anniversaries or whatever else should be anniversaries or whatever else should be celebrating and talking about the celebrating and talking about the failures they had like what was the failures they had like what was the biggest stupidest mistake you know you biggest stupidest mistake you know you had this month and what did you get from had this month and what did you get from it because the more we can all talk it because the more we can all talk about that again it creates humility and about that again it creates humility and it creates learning for everybody it creates learning for everybody nobody's the only perfect thing out nobody's the only perfect thing out there is there is imperfection we're all perfectly imperfection we're all perfectly imperfect so you think about this Mike imperfect so you think about this Mike because of the communication background because of the communication background via I don't know if I mentioned it to via I don't know if I mentioned it to you but Mike is a Communications expert you but Mike is a Communications expert in addition to being a politician and in addition to being a politician and political analyst so it's like uh well political analyst so it's like uh well well tell tell me what you're thinking well tell tell me what you're thinking so far and I got a question for so far and I got a question for you you overall my what I'm really interested in overall my what I'm really interested in is if you find again because of what is if you find again because of what Mark said with my background being in Mark said with my background being in Communications but really the at the Communications but really the at the intersection of government of intersection of government of communications of of board rooms and how communications of of board rooms and how oftentimes they don't see the need to oftentimes they don't see the need to communicate uh with the public or communicate uh with the public or shareholders or much of anybody else shareholders or much of anybody else until it becomes a very serious issue until it becomes a very serious issue and they need a crisis communication and they need a crisis communication counselor I I I ask within your groups counselor I I I ask within your groups is there when you get into that is there when you get into that vulnerable state do you ever hear vulnerable state do you ever hear anything about how perhaps their anything about how perhaps their internal folks are saying we need to be internal folks are saying we need to be better communicators at telling our better communicators at telling our story of what it is that we do and what story of what it is that we do and what our purpose is uh as a company I would our purpose is uh as a company I would say communication is the number one say communication is the number one thing every leader every group every thing every leader every group every company can improve on um and that's one company can improve on um and that's one of the cool things with a group is you of the cool things with a group is you know someone will think they're know someone will think they're communicating well or even within some communicating well or even within some of the leadership workshops I do you of the leadership workshops I do you have a leader who thinks everybody have a leader who thinks everybody should know exactly what he's thinking should know exactly what he's thinking because it's so cleared here and it because it's so cleared here and it comes out and it's not so a recent comes out and it's not so a recent Workshop I did um actually was the Workshop I did um actually was the leader has explained his vision and he's leader has explained his vision and he's like I don't understand why we're just like I don't understand why we're just not aligned and not getting there not aligned and not getting there something's holding us back and going in something's holding us back and going in I tackled two things one Clarity and two I tackled two things one Clarity and two alignment first of all half of the alignment first of all half of the pieces of vision weren't clear like the pieces of vision weren't clear like the team didn't really understand what they team didn't really understand what they were going after and then when they were going after and then when they weren't aligned a lot of it again was a weren't aligned a lot of it again was a lack of communication about what was lack of communication about what was possible what many tools and resources possible what many tools and resources you know the leader had at his disposal you know the leader had at his disposal that he hadn't communicated the team that he hadn't communicated the team team they were talking about changing team they were talking about changing Industries or adding an industry and Y Industries or adding an industry and Y was like we're never going to do that was like we're never going to do that we're not even started meanwhile the we're not even started meanwhile the leader has already got several leads and leader has already got several leads and backup he just hasn't deployed it yet backup he just hasn't deployed it yet because he's waiting for them to fix because he's waiting for them to fix certain processes in the business well certain processes in the business well the team doesn't know that so they think the team doesn't know that so they think this is a pipe dream and the leader like this is a pipe dream and the leader like ready to go once these other things ready to go once these other things happen so that lack of real discussion happen so that lack of real discussion um and having the right tances to spread um and having the right tances to spread it down through the company what it down through the company what information has to go to everybody and information has to go to everybody and how does it need to go so that the how does it need to go so that the messaging is the same and clear and messaging is the same and clear and consistent um everyone can work on that consistent um everyone can work on that um I try to bring a speaker on um I try to bring a speaker on Communications and different techniques Communications and different techniques in almost every year because we always in almost every year because we always need to grow and learn no matter how need to grow and learn no matter how good you are you need to be challenged good you are you need to be challenged to remember that you got to communicate to remember that you got to communicate better um so that's almost a must on my better um so that's almost a must on my list every list every year I'm glad you said it uh it's not year I'm glad you said it uh it's not often I I hear often enough when I speak often I I hear often enough when I speak with Executives for example that yeah we with Executives for example that yeah we have a marketing have a marketing department and my response is yeah department and my response is yeah marketing is a component of an overall marketing is a component of an overall communication strategy whether you're communication strategy whether you're selling a product or there's another selling a product or there's another purpose to to be speaking out beyond purpose to to be speaking out beyond your boardroom but often times I feel your boardroom but often times I feel like there's yeah the personal like there's yeah the personal communication that they have to have communication that they have to have with their with their team so that the with their with their team so that the messaging goes down and there's also the messaging goes down and there's also the purpose why are you communicating is it purpose why are you communicating is it we are a company that has a strong we are a company that has a strong Corporate social responsibility we are a Corporate social responsibility we are a company that is changing our communities company that is changing our communities for the better uh yes everyone obviously for the better uh yes everyone obviously this is capitalism we're trying to earn this is capitalism we're trying to earn a living but what else is there because a living but what else is there because I feel like there's a shift in the way I feel like there's a shift in the way folks are buying uh products a way what folks are buying uh products a way what what businesses they're frequenting and what businesses they're frequenting and this isn't just in South Florida where I this isn't just in South Florida where I am I feel like there are folks that want am I feel like there are folks that want to really like and enjoy and feel part to really like and enjoy and feel part of the mission of whichever company of the mission of whichever company they're buying a product or service from they're buying a product or service from I think you could better communicate as I think you could better communicate as within a boardroom yes internally but within a boardroom yes internally but outward facing about who you are and why outward facing about who you are and why it's important and why you should buy my it's important and why you should buy my product Etc yeah that's important too product Etc yeah that's important too and that's actually another Workshop and that's actually another Workshop I've done with the leadership team is I've done with the leadership team is we've gotten around and helped them we've gotten around and helped them really Define and talk about what their really Define and talk about what their purpose is because all they talk about purpose is because all they talk about is what their goow is how much they want is what their goow is how much they want to sell how much profit they need to to sell how much profit they need to make um not what's the real difference make um not what's the real difference that being a part of that company does that being a part of that company does and changes in the world what's the real and changes in the world what's the real impact I every company no matter what impact I every company no matter what you're doing there's some impact you're you're doing there's some impact you're making somewhere in the world and being making somewhere in the world and being able to spend the time to discuss it and able to spend the time to discuss it and Define it and really get there creates Define it and really get there creates purpose and motivation for everybody to purpose and motivation for everybody to really support that Vision but you've really support that Vision but you've got to Define and talk about it yeah I got to Define and talk about it yeah I just think that half most of the time just think that half most of the time yes it is that what you're saying they yes it is that what you're saying they they talk about goals but but they also they talk about goals but but they also do everything that they possibly can do everything that they possibly can to uh uh uh make themselves very general to uh uh uh make themselves very general very Broad and if there's one thing that very Broad and if there's one thing that you know broad-reaching but if there's you know broad-reaching but if there's one thing I've known in whether working one thing I've known in whether working political campaigns or advising elected political campaigns or advising elected officials and now as one myself is you officials and now as one myself is you can't be good at everything right you can't be good at everything right you got to communicate at what you are good got to communicate at what you are good at and and get a specialty of some kind at and and get a specialty of some kind uh whether you're on a city commission uh whether you're on a city commission or you're in the United States Congress or you're in the United States Congress what is your area of focus and if you're what is your area of focus and if you're a company what's your area of focus what a company what's your area of focus what are you going to do what product are you are you going to do what product are you selling but why is it important to buy selling but why is it important to buy from someone like you uh why is it from someone like you uh why is it important as a leader for you to important as a leader for you to continue to be CEO oftentimes these continue to be CEO oftentimes these folks may have competition internal folks may have competition internal competition or external competition for competition or external competition for their positions what is it about them their positions what is it about them and their Vision that should keep them and their Vision that should keep them where they are um go ahead yeah the best where they are um go ahead yeah the best leadership trait I think of any CEO is leadership trait I think of any CEO is someone who understands their strength someone who understands their strength and understands what's missing from the and understands what's missing from the table and surrounds themselves with table and surrounds themselves with people who have it that old adage right people who have it that old adage right surround yourself with people smarter surround yourself with people smarter than you it's not so much smarter it's than you it's not so much smarter it's what's missing from the table so if you what's missing from the table so if you were a financially minded CEO maybe you were a financially minded CEO maybe you were a CFO where you came back from that were a CFO where you came back from that then you've got the numbers but you then you've got the numbers but you probably don't have the creative side so probably don't have the creative side so you've got to make sure that somebody is you've got to make sure that somebody is counterbalancing you um and when you can counterbalancing you um and when you can of balance and have that diversity of balance and have that diversity within a leadership team you also have within a leadership team you also have to look for personality differences to look for personality differences right because if you all of the same right because if you all of the same personality type therefore it's personality type therefore it's comfortable and you get along you're comfortable and you get along you're probably not challenging each other to probably not challenging each other to think differently um you know to get a think differently um you know to get a different perspective at the table so different perspective at the table so the same diversity I talk about my the same diversity I talk about my groups I think is critical and I groups I think is critical and I challenge their my members to have that challenge their my members to have that within their leadership teams because if within their leadership teams because if they're not getting that there they're they're not getting that there they're missing out on a key component um missing out on a key component um honestly that can make them way more honestly that can make them way more successful than they are yeah I think successful than they are yeah I think there's even something in there like I there's even something in there like I call it a four quadrant exercise so what call it a four quadrant exercise so what I'll do is I'll have a CEO or a level go I'll do is I'll have a CEO or a level go through every single thing they do for through every single thing they do for an entire week and drop those those an entire week and drop those those titles down into a quadrant of like love titles down into a quadrant of like love dislike and hate and then what happens dislike and hate and then what happens is we use the hate category as a is we use the hate category as a delegation tool not realizing that there delegation tool not realizing that there are people on planet Earth that their are people on planet Earth that their mission in life is to do what you mission in life is to do what you absolutely hate to do so what it is then absolutely hate to do so what it is then you're surrounding yourself because I you're surrounding yourself because I used to make this mistake all the time used to make this mistake all the time in hiring the person sounded like me I in hiring the person sounded like me I liked them because they were like me and liked them because they were like me and then I hired them to do something that I then I hired them to do something that I don't like to do and they don't like to don't like to do and they don't like to do it either so now I find myself asking do it either so now I find myself asking them to do me a favor and do what I them to do me a favor and do what I asked what I actually hired them to do asked what I actually hired them to do so it's kind of like running in the mud so it's kind of like running in the mud so it's how do we get out of that so it's how do we get out of that situation once we get past certain level situation once we get past certain level of development we have to surround of development we have to surround ourselves so I'm I'm going to lend some ourselves so I'm I'm going to lend some statistics to this because I'm actually statistics to this because I'm actually in the process of a barbell study that I in the process of a barbell study that I I started 12 years ago and as of right I started 12 years ago and as of right now I believe it might be the largest now I believe it might be the largest study of privately held CEOs and sea study of privately held CEOs and sea levels in the country maybe the world so levels in the country maybe the world so certainly when I'm done with it it'll it certainly when I'm done with it it'll it will be so uh one of the things I asked will be so uh one of the things I asked was if you know your was if you know your IQ if you've taken an IQ test what is it IQ if you've taken an IQ test what is it now very few people could actually say now very few people could actually say it but was wild of Eva was that the ca it but was wild of Eva was that the ca level so the key Executives so this the level so the key Executives so this the uh you know the CIO the COO the C uh you know the CIO the COO the C whatever whatever showcase one standard of deviation showcase one standard of deviation higher IQ on average than their higher IQ on average than their corresponding corresponding CEOs now when I bring that up to the key CEOs now when I bring that up to the key Executives they get all like puffy chest Executives they get all like puffy chest and like see how smart I am like that and like see how smart I am like that like well that tells me two things one like well that tells me two things one is the CEOs are listening to the chairs is the CEOs are listening to the chairs hiring smarter people than themselves hiring smarter people than themselves that's what we need to be doing the that's what we need to be doing the second thing is I turn to the key second thing is I turn to the key members I go yeah but your CEO is worth members I go yeah but your CEO is worth 10 times what you are so who's the dummy well the problem is if you get too full well the problem is if you get too full of yourself right then yeah you are to of yourself right then yeah you are to become the leader you don't think to become the leader you don't think to surround yourself with people smarter surround yourself with people smarter because you think you have the knowledge because you think you have the knowledge so it's really critical that you know so it's really critical that you know what you have and you know what you what you have and you know what you don't um which is why I joined Mage don't um which is why I joined Mage group in the first place right I knew I group in the first place right I knew I didn't know what I didn't know well didn't know what I didn't know well that's that's but that's the start of that's that's but that's the start of the humility path that's actually the humility path that's actually epistemic humility just in you signing epistemic humility just in you signing the document to join I don't know that the document to join I don't know that uh that all the chairs are wise enough uh that all the chairs are wise enough to be the firewall against the arrogance to be the firewall against the arrogance that exists out there because certainly that exists out there because certainly there are arrogant CEOs I'm sure you've there are arrogant CEOs I'm sure you've come across a couple I know I've come come across a couple I know I've come across a couple and they really don't across a couple and they really don't belong so it's kind of like how do you belong so it's kind of like how do you keep mad of there because it's like a keep mad of there because it's like a Cancer and a vistage group but one of Cancer and a vistage group but one of the other things interesting about the the other things interesting about the IQ study of sea level privately Health IQ study of sea level privately Health sea levels and C CEOs is the only people sea levels and C CEOs is the only people who seem to remember that their what who seem to remember that their what their IQ was had EXT extraordinarily their IQ was had EXT extraordinarily High High IQs I wonder how convenient that might IQs I wonder how convenient that might be oh you talk about that I'm like I be oh you talk about that I'm like I have no clue what my IQ would be but you have no clue what my IQ would be but you know there was a couple other things in know there was a couple other things in the study I'm curious about your opinion the study I'm curious about your opinion is is that you know like Tim Ferris is is is that you know like Tim Ferris is uh the 4H hour work week I'm thinking uh the 4H hour work week I'm thinking I'm calling total BS on that because the I'm calling total BS on that because the average work week of a vistage member is average work week of a vistage member is 55 hours a week and if we only said CEOs 55 hours a week and if we only said CEOs it's more like 60 to 65 I had three it's more like 60 to 65 I had three 80-year-old males report back they 80-year-old males report back they worked 80 hours a week and I think maybe worked 80 hours a week and I think maybe in some cases they had maybe they had in some cases they had maybe they had actually done that exercise because you actually done that exercise because you know the four quadrant exercises you sit know the four quadrant exercises you sit back and go okay let me get rid of back and go okay let me get rid of everything I hate let me delegate all everything I hate let me delegate all that stuff provided I legally can then that stuff provided I legally can then what you do is you move on to the what you do is you move on to the dislike category get delegate all of dislike category get delegate all of that even the like category now you're that even the like category now you're only doing what you absolutely love to only doing what you absolutely love to do and now it's not working mhm like I'm do and now it's not working mhm like I'm find myself I work seven days a week but find myself I work seven days a week but especially on the weekends it's the especially on the weekends it's the stuff I absolutely love to do so it stuff I absolutely love to do so it doesn't feel like work to me yeah I have doesn't feel like work to me yeah I have a CEO in the past couple years I've a CEO in the past couple years I've known him um he has moved more and more known him um he has moved more and more into the Strategic and delegated I mean into the Strategic and delegated I mean like fabulous version of exactly what like fabulous version of exactly what you're talking about and what's really you're talking about and what's really great about him is I don't think he great about him is I don't think he feels like he's ever working he's feels like he's ever working he's starting to almost feel bored because starting to almost feel bored because like he's um it's just so much fun to like he's um it's just so much fun to him and it's good and the think he's him and it's good and the think he's doing he's truly being strategic and doing he's truly being strategic and being the best version of himself what's being the best version of himself what's the results in the business oh they're the results in the business oh they're doing incredible all right so okay can I doing incredible all right so okay can I give you can I give you a piece of give you can I give you a piece of advice buy him a glue and a long-haired advice buy him a glue and a long-haired white cat so he can stroke that thing white cat so he can stroke that thing next to the globe while he plans his next to the globe while he plans his world domination like a bond the medians maybe that would keep him better medians maybe that would keep him better engaged he won't have to sell the engaged he won't have to sell the company just to be entertained anymore company just to be entertained anymore but it's just it's amazing to me but it's just it's amazing to me because I mean I watch the businesses because I mean I watch the businesses who Thrive and the businesses who who Thrive and the businesses who struggle and for the most part I mean struggle and for the most part I mean there's some things about Market forces there's some things about Market forces industry Dynamics yeah as nothing to do industry Dynamics yeah as nothing to do with the leader a bad decision here a with the leader a bad decision here a bad decision now the really great bad decision now the really great leaders who are doing what you're leaders who are doing what you're talking about really focusing on the talking about really focusing on the things they love where they're strong um things they love where they're strong um really focusing on communication and really focusing on communication and enhancing their team members developing enhancing their team members developing them coaching them um those are the them coaching them um those are the companies that are just really thriving companies that are just really thriving like the they're going towards their like the they're going towards their Vision full force the others may want to Vision full force the others may want to go towards their Vision but if they go towards their Vision but if they can't get out of their own heads enough can't get out of their own heads enough to really help everybody else below them to really help everybody else below them become better than them um they're become better than them um they're missing the mark and they're really missing the mark and they're really still getting held back from where still getting held back from where they're trying to go like almost like they're trying to go like almost like that star athlete that can't that star athlete that can't coach that type that type of scenario coach that type that type of scenario like even to the point where uh I sit on like even to the point where uh I sit on the board of a uh software company the board of a uh software company that's uh mission in life is to minimize that's uh mission in life is to minimize uh medical era so what they've done is uh medical era so what they've done is they've actually talked about how they've actually talked about how changing the culture of the hospital changing the culture of the hospital from one of uh what would you call it if from one of uh what would you call it if you show any uh show what the hospital you show any uh show what the hospital is making mistakes on there's a punitive is making mistakes on there's a punitive reaction as opposed to calling them good reaction as opposed to calling them good catches like rewarding the person for catches like rewarding the person for actually catching errors that we actually catching errors that we minimize it in the future because the minimize it in the future because the number of people who die needlessly in number of people who die needlessly in hospitals every day is astonishingly hospitals every day is astonishingly high it's like the equivalent of two high it's like the equivalent of two plane crashes a day every day you know plane crashes a day every day you know that would be on the news 24 hours a day that would be on the news 24 hours a day seven days a week and yet this goes seven days a week and yet this goes unreported and it this the needless loss unreported and it this the needless loss of life you know I mean so how do we of life you know I mean so how do we actually encourage people to to say actually encourage people to to say what's what's wrong so this way we we uh what's what's wrong so this way we we uh in improve the overall in improve the overall processes yeah well I mean if you think processes yeah well I mean if you think about it most people are moved into about it most people are moved into leadership roles for the wrong reasons leadership roles for the wrong reasons they're moved up because they were they're moved up because they were really high performer and individual really high performer and individual contributor which is the exact wrong way contributor which is the exact wrong way and you know at the end of the day and you know at the end of the day honestly leads to a lot of poor honestly leads to a lot of poor performance and along the way they're performance and along the way they're also not taught how to truly lead and also not taught how to truly lead and how to coach because coaching is I think how to coach because coaching is I think one of the key traits of a leader that one of the key traits of a leader that really makes everybody else successful really makes everybody else successful right it's about empowering your team right it's about empowering your team members to come up with their own members to come up with their own Solutions and to be proud of themselves Solutions and to be proud of themselves for the things they're working on not for the things they're working on not because you are telling training them because you are telling training them and teaching them there's a place for and teaching them there's a place for training and teaching skills or how to training and teaching skills or how to do things but if you're not also do things but if you're not also combining that with coaching and getting combining that with coaching and getting people to figure out how to be the best people to figure out how to be the best versions of themselves and to develop versions of themselves and to develop themselves um then you're really missing themselves um then you're really missing the mark and I think that's where you the mark and I think that's where you know even in that medical study right know even in that medical study right like if you're not paying attention um like if you're not paying attention um and celebrating the things you're and celebrating the things you're working on and helping your team members working on and helping your team members really learn it in their own ways and really learn it in their own ways and make mistakes and fail um you know make mistakes and fail um you know you're really just trying to tell them you're really just trying to tell them to clone them to be you um do it my way to clone them to be you um do it my way and hope that it all works out youa and hope that it all works out youa missed the growth from it right because missed the growth from it right because if they don't do it your way and they if they don't do it your way and they learn something you never learned well learn something you never learned well then you're better for it yeah I think then you're better for it yeah I think some of that is required the courage of some of that is required the courage of it so this way you're not um worried it so this way you're not um worried about them replacing you you know that about them replacing you you know that goes back to the politics inside goes back to the politics inside publicly traded companies maybe the publicly traded companies maybe the politics inside politics Mike to your politics inside politics Mike to your earlier earlier point so are there any techniques that point so are there any techniques that you can share with us that you use to to you can share with us that you use to to coach the uh CEOs to be better that way coach the uh CEOs to be better that way um so a lot of it is me challenging them um so a lot of it is me challenging them I A lot of times I ask them about things I A lot of times I ask them about things that they know about their team members that they know about their team members or what they think their team members or what they think their team members would say and often I get you know I would say and often I get you know I never really thought about that I've never really thought about that I've never asked them that before and this by never asked them that before and this by just creating the awareness that they just creating the awareness that they don't know things they probably should don't know things they probably should know gets them go back and start asking know gets them go back and start asking more questions and shifts just by more questions and shifts just by pointing that out um I also do tell pointing that out um I also do tell people I give them if I see that they people I give them if I see that they are someone who really struggles with are someone who really struggles with that I tell them to schedule an hour a that I tell them to schedule an hour a week where all they can do is ask week where all they can do is ask questions someone walks in their office questions someone walks in their office and they can't answer a thing they just and they can't answer a thing they just have to ask questions for the entire have to ask questions for the entire hour um to start training them to hour um to start training them to default asking questions in return default asking questions in return instead of just always paring out the instead of just always paring out the answers um they don't have to tell answers um they don't have to tell anyone they're doing it they just have anyone they're doing it they just have to do it just to challenge themselves to to do it just to challenge themselves to do more about a coaching you know I'm g do more about a coaching you know I'm g a philosophy that in the United States a philosophy that in the United States if you're born in the United States you if you're born in the United States you have no problems like you know you get have no problems like you know you get cancer I'll cut you a little slack you cancer I'll cut you a little slack you know so like you make a bold statement know so like you make a bold statement like that you got to back it up if we like that you got to back it up if we were all born in Somalia we'd have were all born in Somalia we'd have problems so in the United States is how problems so in the United States is how do we change the context of the words do we change the context of the words that we're using to We tend to use the that we're using to We tend to use the word problem too much but it's really word problem too much but it's really like uh rich people problems so or what like uh rich people problems so or what I would call challenges so what happens I would call challenges so what happens is I know when a direct report walks is I know when a direct report walks into my office and they're using the into my office and they're using the word problem they're in the wrong mental word problem they're in the wrong mental headspace to solve whatever they're up headspace to solve whatever they're up against because problems have like a a against because problems have like a a like a way of being like a way of being massaged there's like we're in the massaged there's like we're in the impossible sign of our brain where if impossible sign of our brain where if we're using the word challenge we're we're using the word challenge we're like 85% of the way to the solution and like 85% of the way to the solution and now they just need encouragement so it's now they just need encouragement so it's like how do you encourage them to not like how do you encourage them to not need you anymore to not like uh worry need you anymore to not like uh worry about what you have to think or what about what you have to think or what you're thinking on this they already you're thinking on this they already know they're increasing in their know they're increasing in their confidence they're making excellent confidence they're making excellent decisions yeah terminology wise I even I decisions yeah terminology wise I even I I would challenge you on the word I would challenge you on the word challenge and change it to opportunity challenge and change it to opportunity because no matter anything you face because no matter anything you face There's an opportunity to do something There's an opportunity to do something different love it and if you can think different love it and if you can think about anything you're facing as an about anything you're facing as an opportunity you just have to stop and opportunity you just have to stop and pause and reflect what's what's in this pause and reflect what's what's in this um and sometimes you can't see in the um and sometimes you can't see in the moment sometimes you have to look back moment sometimes you have to look back at hindsight it's always 20 20 but if at hindsight it's always 20 20 but if you can look for the why something you can look for the why something happened and I promise you every big bad happened and I promise you every big bad ugly thing problem that comes your way ugly thing problem that comes your way there is a gift in it if you're willing there is a gift in it if you're willing to stop and pause and reflect and the to stop and pause and reflect and the more you can find those gifts in the more you can find those gifts in the moment um the more Creative Solutions moment um the more Creative Solutions you'll come up with nice love it you'll come up with nice love it anything else that you need to anything else that you need to tell it's always an interesting question tell it's always an interesting question and I ask it to my people and yet I and I ask it to my people and yet I never they answer myself well you know never they answer myself well you know the biggest thing I would would say is the biggest thing I would would say is every leader I feel like needs somebody every leader I feel like needs somebody to challenge them and they need the to challenge them and they need the right person I'm not the right person right person I'm not the right person for everybody but if you are a leader for everybody but if you are a leader and you don't have a coach you don't and you don't have a coach you don't have a group you don't have someone in have a group you don't have someone in your life that you are going to and your life that you are going to and talking about being vulnerable with talking about being vulnerable with you're really missing out on the growth you're really missing out on the growth that you could achieve for yourself um that you could achieve for yourself um and so I just encourage everybody find and so I just encourage everybody find that person that group that place that that person that group that place that you can talk about what's keeping you up you can talk about what's keeping you up at night what's hard what what really at night what's hard what what really you know are you scared of um and any of you know are you scared of um and any of that because if you have that you are that because if you have that you are going to be a better leader um and I going to be a better leader um and I would say very few people actually would say very few people actually really have that safe space um so create really have that safe space um so create it for yourself whatever that can be it for yourself whatever that can be however you can do it one question that however you can do it one question that I'm not going to hold you to it as if I'm not going to hold you to it as if it's exactly 100% correct but how many it's exactly 100% correct but how many Executives would you say out there out Executives would you say out there out of publicly traded companies in the of publicly traded companies in the United States that's narrow it down that United States that's narrow it down that actually have executive coaches oh I actually have executive coaches oh I would honestly have no clue but I can would honestly have no clue but I can tell you probably too few right a very tell you probably too few right a very few uh but the companies that you see few uh but the companies that you see generally speaking that are really generally speaking that are really successful do um they don't necessarily successful do um they don't necessarily tell you they do because their egos are tell you they do because their egos are necessarily willing to let the world necessarily willing to let the world know they do but they do um there know they do but they do um there there's a couple of points if I could there's a couple of points if I could jump in here for a second so Let Me Lend jump in here for a second so Let Me Lend some statistical credibility to what some statistical credibility to what you're saying you're saying 87.7% of my respondents and my CEOs 87.7% of my respondents and my CEOs report trouble sleeping at report trouble sleeping at night I think on some level they know night I think on some level they know how much risk they're taking and that how much risk they're taking and that they've concentrated their assets into they've concentrated their assets into one investment 90% of their net worth is one investment 90% of their net worth is in one investment which increases the in one investment which increases the overall risk of it so this the second overall risk of it so this the second thing is is that if you don't if you thing is is that if you don't if you aren't willing to reach out for advisory aren't willing to reach out for advisory work whether it's coaching or bringing work whether it's coaching or bringing in some specialist in order to make the in some specialist in order to make the company better um Family offices aren't company better um Family offices aren't interested in investing in your company interested in investing in your company not that all the companies that we deal not that all the companies that we deal with are looking for that sort of thing with are looking for that sort of thing some of them are actually looking to some of them are actually looking to make it multigenerational but it speaks make it multigenerational but it speaks loudly to what do we need to be open to loudly to what do we need to be open to in order to look like we're one of the in order to look like we're one of the best companies out there how do we do best companies out there how do we do that one of it is outside Council that one of it is outside Council because every team has a blind spot just because every team has a blind spot just the way the way is yeah and so I mean like I said that is yeah and so I mean like I said that is the one thing that if I had to give a is the one thing that if I had to give a bit of negative piece of advice is find bit of negative piece of advice is find somebody who helps you see your blind somebody who helps you see your blind spot who is going to challenge you and spot who is going to challenge you and make well I think that's a great place make well I think that's a great place for us to wrap this up hopefully you can for us to wrap this up hopefully you can re uh join us at a future dateo really re uh join us at a future dateo really appreciate all the wisdom you share with appreciate all the wisdom you share with our audience today thank you so much our audience today thank you so much thank you so much for having me mar Mike thank you so much for having me mar Mike I really appreciate it [Music] [Music] [Music]