Beyond the Comfort Zone: Mastering the Balanced Hybrid Work Model featuring John Wichmann

welcome to beyond the comfort zone live a show that helps you step out of your comfort zone into a place of growth and learning for those of you joining us for the first time I'm Aviva Libo and I'm a vistage chair in Atlanta Georgia I lead two groups of incredibly driven and ambitious CEOs who want to accept cerate toward their goals faster in addition I facilitate a group of growth oriented key Executives who are dedicating to driving transformational change within their organizations our peer groups are powerful Mastermind collectives where members come together regularly to share ideas and experiences and support one another no matter how many years of experience a leader has the reality is their knowledge and experiences are still limited they don't know what they don't know because they haven't been exposed to it yet a peer environment creates valuable opportunities to explore the unnown be more proactive and make better decisions by leveraging the collective wisdom and diverse perspectives of their peers members are able to achieve more than they ever could on their own our guest today is John Wickman John is the founder and CEO of gather sciences and the creator of balanced hybrid a datadriven platform for creating purpose-driven and sustainable hybrid work models John developed balanced hybrid combining his years of experience leading teams and working with senior executives to maximize values from workplaces balanced hybrid is uniquely designed to help an organization capture the significant benefits of hybrid work model without negatively impacting growth agility or the Learning and Development of its associates in today's postco environment where hybrid work is at increasing risk of being eliminated John is a leading voice for intentional and purpose-driven hybrid work strategies and their ability to unlock growth and cost reductions for organizations career and well-being benefits for employees and reduced impact on our environment without further Ado I would like to welcome John to the show John thank you for being on beyond the comfort zone thanks s it's a great to be on thank you for having me um so I asked John specifically to be on the show because one of the things we talk about in peer groups all the time is hybrid Workforce remote Workforce do we bring them back to the office um and it's such a Hot Topic because I don't think anybody really feels confident that they know how to do it right um looking out balancing all of the things um that John is working to sort through and uh with balanced hybrid um before we jump in to talking more about hybrid and balance work for can you tell me people a little bit about gather sciences and what your background is yeah um absolutely um well gather Sciences really was uh formed and formulated to help Ure the sustainability of hybrid work as a go forward model for organizations um really the impetus of that was from um really I would say my immersion in in everything workplace everything hybrid in the last company I had was a co-founder of a workplace management solution called map Tian and really we were um right in the middle of everything we had our first 10 customers when we when pandemic hit and we had to Pivot a couple of times so that really provided a front row seat to All Things return all things hybrid as that emerged and and really provided visibility to what I saw as a as an emerging set of challenges really around hybrid but on the other side of that real clear understanding of the true potential that could be tapped with a well implemented hybrid program and my background is data and analytics prior to that I was with ter for eight years and led Services teams and practices working with some of the largest companies in the world and thought that um this would really be a great area to really Prov combine data science and um and AI generative AI um to bring together in really common sense um I think and really what worked and what we saw work bring that together in a platform solution to help companies navigate this this particular area yeah it's very interesting and different perspective because most people are talking about hybrid from a people culture perspective not necessarily from the data behind it and how you can use it to be more effective um I think we've all seen lots of recent headlines about organizations um big organizations small eliminating um hybrid work programs bringing back people back into the office um I'm curious why you think it's happening and if you think it's a sign of things that are going to continue coming so unfortunately it's because many in many cases um the Hybrid models that are are being followed right now I guess I use the term model Loosely because they are very loose and and in many many cases overly flexible um those are causing real issues for companies and for CEOs and CEOs are starting to recognize that well they they probably recognized it for some time but it's really now maybe with the uh the length of time that's gone on maybe with the shift of the softer job market they feel maybe more empowered to try to take that on the challenge we see however is that um the where they go is well this isn't working so let's go back to what we had before um which we believe is is also not the right solution so um we do believe we we when we talk to CEOs we hear about really a general loss of momentum we do hear about loss of productivity uh and even if it's not productivity sometimes it's maybe the a same amount of work is going on but it's not going on related to the most important things for the business at that time which can be just as bad as lower productivity if you're doing work in the wrong in the wrong areas um onboarding and knowledge transfer is also a huge challenge um that we hear um whether that's a partner-led firm like a law firm or an accounting firm where you know the whole apprenticeship model is really taking a hit with with hybrid work um but there's real issues going on so I know sometimes CEOs get the um you know come out as the villain in this topic which I really don't think they they should because they are truly working to react to um genuine impact negative impact that's happening to their organizations we're trying to help them you know you know attack that and address those in a way other than going back to the way things were four or five years ago yeah it's interesting because that conversation comes up a lot because the points you're raising they're points everybody's feeling working with the CEOs that I work with um the question is what's the right way to tackle them um and I think a lot of people are going back to we've got to just you know bring everybody back in um and so I'm curious you know you're hearing that you're talking about that there's a way to be in a balanced hybrid approach do you think these companies are making a mistake pulling people back in generally speaking or um is that an opportunity to work that way as well yeah for sure well um it's as I said it's for valid reasons um I do think um that full come back five days for most companies isn't necessary and with some intentionality and planning and and a common shared why that that would really um allow them to find that middle ground for for them so we do believe it's it's very possible and we developed as you mentioned um the best practice framework called balanced hybrid and what balance hybrid does is it essentially um says that a best practice approach to hybrid will combine you know bring together the right people at the right time and frequency into an inviting engaging collaborative office environment physical environment um then really to do the things that matter most when you're together and so what we've found is by combining those things and then surrounding we're putting at the center of that really an improved share shared why right that um Executives and and leaders senior leaders and first level leaders and and Associates can all really agree on and believe that it's it's reasonable um so we believe when we bring those together and and certainly having that all on a foundation of accountability and visibility because sometimes those are lacking in organizations as well um that that really does um yield really very high value um result it can benefit employees it can benefit growth and um come up with cost savings um you know employeers are happier less time in the car many many benefits M yeah I mean it sounds like there's also when you think about it there are a lot of benefits for both employees and employers of a hybrid environment um but it's a matter of doing it the right way um you talk about a data driven approach and trying to match um how people are like that people are there at the right times doing the right things um how does g science and how how do you create this balanced hybrid work model how do you find this out is there an assessment you're doing doing or what what's the process look like to develop an ideal hybrid environment it is it's it's a element of say understanding um from the executives to everybody else in the organization and where they sit and what they view as valuable and then it it really there's a a data analysis element as well and so what we're trying to really do is once we have sort of an element of of common ground is to essentially um bring together the the needs and desires and um sentiment of different areas of that organization because we believe that um we don't believe in one siiz fits-all for an organization and certainly not across organizations we we believe that within an organization you're going to have functional areas that have very different needs from one another as it relates to time in the office and out of the office we could look back five plus years and look at sales organizations I think we could all agree that sales teams never operated like anybody else in an organization right and and so um they were out in the field they drop in um they'd be gone you know they just did what they needed to do and there's number of reasons for that one obviously there's a a highly accountable um structure to that to comp and to whether you're doing well or not there's that but really it's more about they needed to be out with customers and Prospects and and things like that so really what the what all that we've learned through the pandemic and working from home remote work and all the the new capabilities we've brought to bear and our belief is that well why now that we have those capabilities does marketing and finance need to be the same just like sales is different we believe there's differences across those different uh functions and that's what we see when we work across organizations we see much more commonality between two Finance organizations than we do between two manufacturing organizations and that's really where um we believe those breaks happen and when we're looking at a purpose-driven intentional approach to hybrid where employees feel there's high value for coming into the office that that's how to really achieve that and so we we work to help facilitate that um in a really I'd say a data informed um process so you mentioned some of the specific challenges that I hear regularly um less productivity on boarding is a huge one how do we take Knowledge from this you know experienced person from 20 years and get into this brand new person um how do you in your system overcome some of those challenges let's talk about maybe the top two or three challenges you're seeing let's start there what are they and then how do CEOs what can they do to address some of them sure um I would say one of the first is really um a lack of understanding of um something other than a binary option either I have to live with what I have now with hybrid which I don't like very much or we have to go back to the way it is so I think one is just really educating and and saying hey there is a a third way we can find a middle ground that will help to ensure that you can embrace all the benefits of hybrid without having it negatively impact the organization's growth or uccess or the growth or success of any of the associates within it that's really sort of um where we find a lot of common ground is um because if you think about that and you say hey is it reasonable that hybrid should not impact the company or its company's growth in a negative way for any of the associates or people in our company well most people agree on that and there that's a great area for common ground uh we've found time and time again and so following that it's really um sometimes a hyperfocus on on this whole productivity question where the typical argument goes well if I don't have to drive in then I'm going to save all this time on the car and I'm GNA be more productive at home and um in a nutshell that you could say well gee that sort of makes sense but the reality is you know not many jobs can sort of sustain this um um Forever This un um sort of unlimited level of work from home you can just do by yourself and you don't need any help I mean any jobs that are that remote capable probably have already been outsourced or probably will become outsourced if if you can really do them solo to that level of isolation if you will and so the productivity topic sort of breaks down and um one of the other things we find is when we're talking to um groups of employees or at a town hall and trying to help communicate this sometimes it's about communicating that the the idea of coming into the office is more than about you know just your productivity it's about what else you bring to the organization and to your Associates and that does help to really change mindsets so we we do really combine sort of that data science and then the um the psychology of it I guess to to appeal to people's um you know desires to to be together and to contribute so when you're looking at solutions for an individual role because I heard you earlier say it's not one size fits all different roles we're going to have different needs um how do you determine how many days they need to be together um what working together looks like you know some of those basic questions about what hybrid could look like for a particular role sure um well we try not to be too prescriptive in that um we believe that the individuals who are leading those disciplines are in the best position to make the those determinations and those those calls we do believe it needs to be within some overall parameters set by the CEO or managing partner or that executive leadership team so that there's some some commonality there um and then there's appropriate um consistency doesn't mean everybody in the company certainly needs to be the same but you have two like groups for example Dev team one and Dev team two where there should be some consistency there unless there's a real good reason that they're not consistent type of project complexity of the project different things like that but we do find that usually those individuals who are leading those areas and those the department division team have a very good handle on that and and or a good position to to really make that call so then the guidance you're providing is more specific not to the do it exactly this way prescriptive but these are the types of things you need to be looking for um to make it a stronger hybrid approach right so we're providing an overall framework we're providing a road map on on how to get from you know from from A to Z from where they're at to where they're going um you know in some cases we can if they want us to help and sort of carry that whole thing through we can we can do that but we're just as as um open to and able to just equip them right equip them with the road map with the data outputs to really when they're doing that you know that area planning process on what is our hybrid plan going to be for our area or our group division um that that is a very a data informed process so where we are um doing a very targeted specific survey um that we've gotten great results from around this topic to Associates a different one to leaders so that we can bring all that together and then show one Department um how you know within their department they compare they can see how that looks across departments and really allow them to say okay I feel much more informed about what the people in our department are thinking so we can respond in terms of our planning because when you ask people for their feedback and they provide the feedback they want to know that it's been reviewed and if they see evidence that it's been considered and put into practice that can really benefit a lot right as you're going through this process and we believe there's no better way to really create that plan than to do it with data that's coming from people who are within your teams or your organization company brings you in says we realize we need to do hybrid differently um there's a better way and so they embrace you as for you know doing the assessment in that work they go to implement a strategy and they have that manager who absolutely either must have their people in um or the one who really doesn't care and is still willing to let other people go remote um how do you guide companies in handling those two extreme scenarios right well sometimes it helps to have a third party so they can point at us for people who are mad about one particular part or another um and so we can take the heat for that but but then again um because balance Harvard is a purpose-based approach um it really is designed so that you can have a very direct conversation with anybody at any level and say hey this is why we're doing this and we believe it's the right thing and we took care to take an input from across our organization now that doesn't mean that everybody's going to be happy with every element of this we can't make everybody happy we understand that but understand that we're all working against this common goal to say we want to embrace hybrid but in a way that doesn't damage the organization its growth or the growth and success of the individuals within our organization and that could be somebody new joining who wants to be able to ramp up um it could be someone who um needs to have a quick response from another teammate right and so you have to box these in so um so one is pointed us two is we do advocate for um having a policy that is appropriate for a little bit more structured you can't really just take your all the work from a home you know policy from five or six years ago and just sort of dust it off and say well this is what we do you really have to have a policy that's purposeful against a hybrid model or there's going to be gaps all over it and people who want to game it or have an propensity to game the system will game the system and so we've developed um we think fair and uh appropriate um advisement around that about things to put in in a policy that people think hey you know that's reasonable um I may not love it but it's it's reasonable so there's that structure and then you obviously need to measure and and hold people and teams accountable for for doing that and and you're right sometimes we'll see managers are more resistant to this than some of the associates especially I mean younger Associates understand the importance honestly more often than not of being around people who can teach them things sometimes it's your um your middle or some of your upper managers who um are a little more resistant sometimes that's just changing the the framework of the conversation and helping them understand how they add value beyond their just sort of productivity if you will so you mentioned measuring things um what are some metrics um or insights that you can share that organizations should be looking at as they're making these decisions yeah well it's interesting one of the I'd say one of the most surprising and I guess it's just sometimes I don't think about at this um or or the last four years have gone so quickly but when we go in one of the things we do is give them a a reflection back of sort of by department or group what that tenure looks like and and also what percent of the organization or group has been um hired since covid and you we're now being four years if you look at just general turnover plus companies that are growing it's it's not uncommon we'll get 60 plus percent of the entire organization that was hired post lockdowns so if you think about if you were there and you think about gee the culture how we did things five years ago and then like think about people joining at all these little different phases during the lockdowns and after and all that it's a completely different environment even within organizations we'll see teams that are 90 plus percent brand new from from a standpoint of of like a post lockdown hire and so to try to maintain that culture um it really takes a lot of intentionality and and effort so I'd say that is one the other one is um is probably you know one of the things we measure is kind of our net promoter score if you will for for sort of hybrid success and it's called the the OES or office experience score and we ask um you know it's kind of our core question and we'll Benchmark against it and ask it again after we we work with them or they put the process through which just says you know in the last 45 days how often has your in-office experience been worth your commute just single question and it's you know never seldom sometimes usually or always and it's a one to five scale rating and you know most companies land are in that three range a little above a little below which you know when we talk to senior leaders we say you know essentially what they're saying is um without saying it is they're saying about half the time they think their you know commute wasn't wasn't worth it that you're essentially wasting their time about half the time you're forcing them to come in and if you can think about that nobody likes their time wasted um that's probably one of everybody's top five things that frustrate them and if you're have employees who actively think that their Drive-In is a waste of time most of the time that's not going to do good things for retention for employee engagement scores you know um likely to recommend things like that so what's an average score that you've seen for companies that are doing hybrid exceptionally well you know it's it's probably in the um you know the high threes into the fours um is is probably where because you do have some people that are a little bit harder to move Al what we've seen is that um the approach that we recommend or help them Implement really does help move your people who are the the never and the seldom helps really move them off of those very low end of the scale which is good because sometimes they have the most negative attitudes as well and that can be um a little somewhat costic to other folks in their groups so we're able to move them up and then we're our goal is to move everybody up at least one level you know through the process um other than we're not going to necessarily get somebody to always if they they're are usually we're like okay that's good we'd love you to go to an always but we'll take usually um but we really do try to move everybody else up one or more um levels on that up and to the right so if companies are doing their own work on this and making changes um a question like that could be a really good before and after to get a sense of absolutely are they moving the needle absolutely and we're happy to help them s of put put that in place and uh and ask that um we have some tools and templates we can uh we can provide to them and we don't charge them anything additional for for that well um companies that are doing just because this topic comes up so much especially with what you just shared about the statistics of how many people are new since Co um which is mindboggling um when you think about it um what organizations that are doing hybrid really well what is onboarding looking like that you're seeing for them um well I'd say that um it's an area that we see is as a constant challenge um we really do advocate for being intentional about that and so when you're when you're on boarding ensuring that uh that experience is going to be one in which that individual is going to be surrounded by people who can pour into them for the the that critical um early period and that will certainly vary by group um it'll vary by you know the job discipline um by how early the person is I mean if you bring a person in who's fresh out of school versus a person who is just new to your company but is experienced in what they're doing already you're hiring um a somewhat or a semi you know reasonably experienced or a highly experienced person there's going to be different needs for that but that is one of the things in that hybrid planning process that we have that is covered in in great detail is ensuring that not only does everybody have a plan for how they're going to do hybrid how often and all those elements really of of balanced hybrid that I had mentioned but also what is that onboarding plan look like because that's a critical element of it um because you may not operate the same way when a new person comes on as you do generally speaking so a balanced hybrid approach might look like one thing during normal times but if a new team member is coming on it might shift for a couple of months or time period things have shifted and then kind of go back to a different approach exactly and so we're facilitating that really in Mass right across an organization so that a CEO has confidence that it's not just well it's in the policy but there's real confidence um that that's happening um it's it's documented it's um it's clear it's been thought through and then there's followup to ensure that it's happening one of the things you mentioned earlier was making sure that organizations are doing the most important work when people are physically together um I'm curious if you've noticed any Trends on what that type of work looks like um that really should be done more when people are in the office together versus when they're out yeah for sure I'd say the one that always not surprisingly jumps to the top is is really onboarding and you know um knowledge transfer so whether folks are remote um remotely positioned or whether they're hybrid or whether they're in office that one is almost a a universal sort of first place um I'd say you know culture camaraderie collaboration those really follow right along with that um you know if there's some complex planning uh for example Sprint planning a development team would be a good example or an after action kind of a Sprint review that would be another one so um I'd say those are those where there's that you know that collaboration and the communication going going back and forth I'd say that those are the ones that are um probably um you know most most typical and then obviously the you know individual work activity people generally you know recognize that when you you talk about your asynchronous sort of tasks that those are are are better for you know focused remote time are you seeing a lot of companies um that you're working with have set days for in office where everybody's there together or certain teams are there together and then the other days everybody's more asynchronous or um is is that kind of the shift people are going to it's it's really it's all of all over the board quite honestly um you'll get everything from it's this many days a week or as many days a month you pick or so you get a lot of the up picks and and and I think that's really where hybrid starts to break down if there's too much individual Choice which I understand why I mean that all evolved out of the individ individual choice that because it was a health and safety component to it in the early days and prev vaccines and we had all of the the stuff going on with masks and vaccines and all that it was very much extended almost universally as an individual Choice well people got very used to individual choice and and they sort of assumed that was always how it would go and and that's really I think what we're dealing with now is sort of I'd say reverberation still ripples from that and so sort of an evolved hybrid so we think adding more structure is very important to ensuring that if we are going to spend fewer days together that we're ensuring that we're you know indeed spending them together and that we're doing things that count when we are together um you had mentioned to me before we got on here about the save hybrid initiative that gather scien is is launching can you tell me a little bit more about that and how my audience can get involved if they're interested yeah absolutely thanks for asking so we've created because we believe so strongly in the benefits of hybrid and and we also see the the risks of it of going away um over time as companies continue to experience negative impact of hybrid the way it may currently be implemented at their organizations we've kicked off a save hybrid campaign so individuals who want to help out right by providing their feedback and their experiences can go to save hybrid.com just take a f minute survey and give us their feedback and perspectives about hybrid work and what they think either they see is working well within their organization maybe within their group or maybe another group um or what they believe is needed to be done to have some of that success around hybrid we believe that in most companies hybrid is being done well in Pockets um but not being well done well overall and not really being structured or measured um or tracked or tuned um at an Enterprise level um it it's sort of very general so we're really utilizing this information to help provide better guidance to organizations that we can really help to um Ensure again our mission to ensure that hybrid work is something that can be here to stay to be sustainable and something that's here to stay it has to right it has to be something that doesn't negatively impact an organization or its growth or or the folks in it and so we we know that's there we we've seen it we've helped implement it and we believe that through this save hybrid initiative we're going to be able to get even broader swath of input and ideas that have worked well so we can share those with others yeah when we had a conversation before this you gave me some statistics that were astounding around some of the reasons why hybrid is important uh to a company not just the employees that the flexibility is nice uh or for a benefit standpoint but for an actual company's overarching um success and benefit um be curious if you could share some of those sure absolutely well I mean we're seeing more and more studies come out now that employees greatly prefer hybrid work you know I've seen 87% prefer a hybrid model um to a non-hybrid model you see upwards of 60% of folks who might quit if they were asked to come back or think about quitting um 60% or more so for from a company's perspective there's a real risk and a real danger of of attrition um on the experienced associate side equally so though if they don't fix hybrid and and a new associate some or new like top grad they just hired and spent all this time and energy recruiting those individuals um are not going to typically stay with the company if they don't believe it's an environment where they can learn and grow in these critical early years of their career and so um while pulling everybody back five days can can certainly drive away and increase attrition of probably your more seasoned resources you can have similar level of attrition of those new hires if you have a super loose one so there's really around that that I'd say that people side then what we found just from our own really experience and Analysis is that really through a well- implemented hybrid program that has the right amount of structure a company can save upwards of 30% on their real estate costs over time which you know given how expensive commercial real estate is that can be a very significant driver and also gives them much more flexibility about how and when they move um and how of often they need to increase increase space um there's there's also environmental component that we believe is is very important um we look at this we um and we communicate to you know to our our clients we talk about really the impact right the the carbon footprint if you will really if if you think about a five day a week and a two and a half day a week you know on average in for every hundred employees that go from Two and a half to five days in the office it's around 181 metric tons of CO2 being added back into the environment by doing that and so where companies do have those environmental goals in carbon reductions you know forcing folks back um in these you know sort of five day a week things if they're really looking at we believe in the right way they would see that that's counterproductive and if again if they move in the other direction we think it's very reasonable to to claim that given that there are some very very large companies right now that have gone back to five days and so you can kind of Benchmark savings against a 5-day um you know in office uh approach yeah I mean it sounds like from a financial savings perspective an environmental perspective there's so many different reasons to do hybrid um I find really you know the comparison you made earlier between retention if you do don't do hybrid well or you um completely remote or you have everybody back in the office that you have the same exact risks within a company so finding that balanced approach in the middle um really is the best way to retain your team and really invest in them um and therefore have the best results for your company as well yeah we believe so we've we've seen that in in through our conversations with Folks at all levels of the of organizations and in the results now many CEOs have already made the call to pull everybody back to work um how would you advise a CEO who has done that who is now watching this and going oops maybe I shouldn't have done that sure um you we really think there there is a an opportunity to um to really build that into the story um bringing folks back to try to address um a true need and a true impact that the business was seeing and I don't think a CEO can be faulted for that because they were really just doing what they were hired to do which is to protect the success and growth of the company and the folks in it um we do think there's a great opportunity for to be able to utilize for example the balance hybrid approach or framework to then say hey we're going to take a more refined look at this and see if we can fine-tune this and open up some uh some fine-tuning within our different department areas so to move from sort of where we went to and then start to have a more targeted approach while still preserving the goals and reasons that they you know went to that in the first place so we we think it can tell a good story story and certainly there's great opportunity for moving customer or CL employee set up because you're coming from a potentially a very unpleasant uh kind of working experience five days in to something much better so we think there's a huge opportunity for positive lift around engagement and and employee satisfaction uh with this and and we think they can save a whole lot of money in the interum and tell tell a different story when they're doing recruiting uh than the one they probably have been challenged to successfully tell as they're trying to hire people into a 5- day a week uh set of roles now you mentioned office space before um and even that there's a lot of stories around right some still have the same amount of traditional office space they are maybe using it well or not using it at all and others eliminated their offices and are now needing to figure out what new space should look like how do you guide or advise companies to look at um office space and design it in a way that really supports a balanced hybrid approach sure um well we think that the first key is ensuring you have a plan that you can can follow because when you have a plan and approach that's predictable then it allows you to project what you need and when you need it so we think that's at the core of it following that we do and I'm I'm a big believer in Tools around that so that was the type of tool that um I had at my last comp company that we that I had co-founded that company mtici so mtici is an excellent tool to help an organization really get connect to people to the space um not only sort of where they sit but when they sit where they sit so you could look hey next Thursday who's coming in who's going to be in what I'm in and allows you to start to see visibility in an environment where you can't just assume everybody's in every day and so we are it's one of our first recommendations in addition this is really to have a tool set or have a iwms that's well equipped and um my obviously close experience with mtici uh I helped uh helped design and form that um and so I know that it works really well for this use case and there's other tools out there um but I would say especially now if you really want to take advantage of this opportunity to save money use space more effectively and help employees connect with other employees and on board better uh there there's no you know better time than now to pick up a you know an iwms for your your organization I think it's a a critical musthave solution for for companies well it's been wonderful chatting with you today um what is the best way for our listeners to connect with you if they have questions or they're interested in engaging gather Sciences to do some bid balanced um hybrid work with them yeah um absolutely well they can reach out on on LinkedIn um as well reach out on our on our website gather gather sciences.com and um love to connect with them just talk through this and see if there might be something we could help or maybe we could just answer some questions for them we'd be happy to do that and a question I ask every guest I have on here because it wouldn't be beyond the comfort zone if I didn't um what is something out of your comfort zone that you have never done before oh I've never jumped out of an airplane with a shoot on I don't think I would oh it's a lot of fun so oh wow okay well you'll have to get me a up to speed on on that um I've always thought it would be difficult to jump out of a perfectly good airplane so it's funny because I get that a lot and I've done it three times so that's that's that's good well thank you so much Don for joining me today it's been an honor to have you as a guest on the show and thank you to everyone who's joined us uh until next time on beyond the comfort zone I encourage all of my viewers to try something new outside your comfort zone whether it's a approaching hybrid work in a new way or uh jumping out of an airplane um because that's where growth occurs and Life Begins have a great day everyone [Music]