[Music] foreign [Music] welcome to beyond the comfort zone live a show that helps you step out of your comfort zone into a place of growth and learning for those of you joining us for the first time I'm Aviva Wilmer and I'm a vistage chair in Atlanta Georgia I lead three groups of incredibly driven and ambitious CEOs who want to accelerate toward their goals faster in addition I facilitate a group of growth oriented key Executives who are dedicated to driving transformative change within their organizations our peer groups are powerful Mastermind collectives where members come together regularly to share ideas and experiences and support one another no matter how many years of experience a leader has the reality is their knowledge and experiences are still limited they don't know what they don't know because they haven't been exposed to it yet a peer environment creates valuable opportunities to explore the unknown be more proactive and make better decisions by leveraging the collective wisdom and diverse perspective of their peers members are able to achieve more than they ever could on their own Our Guest today is Michael somberg an accomplished author speaker coach autism dad and advocate for transforming workplace culture he's the CEO of Skyrocket education and rebel culture love the name um and he coaches leaders globally with clients like Google northwell health and Calvin Klein he's dedicated to improving the work experience for millions and a significant portion of our adult lives as we know it is dedicated to work so Michael is a strong Advocate that work should be full of joy Clarity and fulfillment let's welcome Michael zombert to beyond the comfort zone welcome Michael uh thanks so much for having me Aviva I'm really I'm really excited to be here this is awesome awesome so glad to have you um to our guests I would love you to put in chat um you know what about culture is most troubling to you and what is most exciting to you feel free to put questions in the chat throughout the show and uh I'll try to answer them as best I can or have Michael answer them as best he can great questions um Michael we see people join us um you know I just urgent culture and uh what's working and not I'm curious what you see leaders are getting wrong about workplace culture yeah well uh a lot um and uh if I could just go back a little bit I started my work in urban school districts around the country uh in in the zip codes that most people go out of their way to avoid and I started to become fascinated by how two schools a block from each other in some of the most you know poverty-stricken and trauma-filled neighborhoods in our country could have radically different culture um despite all the external factors pushing on them and what I saw was that it was always because of the leader or the leaders and it was because they were doing things like communicating things early and often and very clearly they were observing their team in action they were providing feedback this is not not always you know praise but sometimes constructive feedback but they were leading in a lot of ways alongside their teams and and we're really committed to developing folks the thing that folks that a lot of leaders get wrong is they think that because they have a great idea or because they are you know are Visionary or really smart that the culture is just going to figure itself out it doesn't and and a lot of companies and organizations I work with the employees are are much like if you've ever had a really bad storm in your town and and there's a four-way stoplight and it's it's out because the power's out they're very much like those people at that stop light like unsure whether they should go starting to inch out getting getting you know horns kind of honked at them you know figuratively of course but you know it's there's a lack of clarity around how we should operate here and I don't really know what our organization stands for and so then leaders sometimes try and fix those misses through things like you know half day summer Fridays and you know gift cards and you know we have like now we have a pool table in the you know in the lounge and and employees don't care about that stuff at least they don't care about it when so many of the other things are are so broken so it's really uh it's really we're in a tough state in terms of employee satisfaction you know that people listening know this you know so if I'm hearing what you're saying it's not that those types of things are bad but you have to have a good culture for them to work and if you don't have a good culture those things don't fix it exactly yeah it's it's exactly right they're not objectively bad or good maybe maybe they are good oh great I love my I love working here I'm on fire to be a part of this team my boss is awesome super clear in their Vision provides me tons of support I always know where I stand and we have a pool table great but but if those if those other things aren't in place and now we have a pool table who cares you know I don't I don't respect I don't respect my boss I don't I don't enjoy being here I'm checked out for much of the time so it's uh it definitely doesn't solve the problem what do you think is the biggest impediment to building a strong culture that's great well the first thing is is that um and this isn't the biggest but the first thing is that leaders have to get that it's um that it's important and that it doesn't happen by accident um but the the biggest impediment that I've seen is um once folks get that it's their responsibility is around uh fear uh leader fear it's easier for me to say as a leader I don't have the right people on my team or I can't believe that they're gossiping or they should know that ASAP means within 24 hours it's easier for me to do those things because um I'm not put in a position in those cases of being uncomfortable it's harder to be the person who is consistently messaging our values holding people incredibly accountable for the things that we say we care about and and the ways in which we're going to operate and a lot of leaders they don't you know they don't know if they if that'll be well received they think they have concerns that their employees will say that they're micromanaging them and so most leaders don't do much about those things um because they're worried about what the what the results will be it's really a self-fulfilling prophecy right I'm not going to provide real Clarity for my team because I'm worried that they're going to think you know either that I'm you know micromanaging them or or that you know um I don't I'm not empowering them um and then what happens is employees feel untethered and they feel like I don't know how I'm supposed to operate here I'm just going to do my own thing um and that that obviously doesn't lead to Great culture so let's talk a little bit more about you know big picture really great strong culture I hear you hinting at things like vision and you know Clarity um but if you were to describe what a really great workplace culture looked like and felt like what would that be yeah so again it starts at the top um the this idea that we don't have the right people anybody could be the right person they just have to be working in an environment where the leadership is impeccably clear about their vision and what they are attempting to accomplish uh and then that their their values their organizational values or core tenants or whatever folks call them are actually lived and not simply espoused Aviva I was with a team recently of 50 folks and I started to talk about core values it was the 50 people from the same team and there was kind of like a little bit of an eye roll we have core values I said great raise your hand if you can recite all six of them right now raise your hand if you can recite all six of your core valves two hands went up out of 50. that's a problem we're saying a lot of things in the in the in the workplace and we don't actually we we espouse things we don't actually embody them right and so the idea is that the vision and value are lived and that comes from leaders and that feedback is grounded in the and the vision and values and that shout outs of grounded in vision and values and there are consistent conversations happening around uh you know Hey where's the place where you really met one of our values since we last met where's a place specific to our values that you need to do we need to do better um uh going forward and this consistent messaging around here's what we care about here and here's how we operate and then when those things are in place communication is so important I mean there's insane statistics about the amount of like workplace frustration that is directly related to poor communication late communication inconsistent communication and so you know we tell folks all the time you can have the best ideas in the world if if your team is if you're asking your team to do stuff to Pivot on a you know Friday morning when they've been working on something all week because you were unclear on the initial ask you're gonna absolutely hurt your culture um now if you have those other things I mentioned in place it's much easier to get folks to Pivot I'll be much much more bought into it so you know this environment you know I see it with teams where teams I coach and teams that I've learned from the folks are on fire to be there they're on fire to be a part of it right they're not having conversations about oh it's Monday morning right which by the way is normal I'm not putting that down but like you know like they're just they're excited about what they're working on and um and they're willing to go above and beyond not for extra money or not for extra recognition but because they care so much about what they are what they are trying to achieve you know it's it's you can tell in an individual when they are just passionate excited to be there constantly coming up with new ideas versus honestly when they're burnt out and the work is maybe getting done but you can tell that difference totally I'm curious I'm hearing you talk a lot about this Clarity do you think that's the main driver and whether an individual is getting burnt out and frustrated versus engaged and passionate yeah it's one of the main drivers I don't know if I've ever ranked them but it's right at the top of the it's right at the top of the list I mean we we coach leaders all the time I coach leaders all the time when I'm like yeah what's the what what what what matters here what do we care about what is it supposed to look like um I was shadowing a leader recently who was talking to her team and uh was saying things like okay so um look can we uh can we do that can we do that this week and the team's like yeah sure and so my coaching far after is like okay when this week right and and how will folks send it to you and and what's that you know like because this week is a lot different than Friday at 5 p.m or Thursday at noon and so like when we don't provide that level of clarity for people right and by the way 91 of uh I saw our survey recently 91 of the current Workforce thinks their bosses could do a better job at holding the team accountable so people employees actually want this they want to know that it's Friday at 4 pm so they can prioritize it so when we say General things to people they respond in general ways when we make suggestions they take those suggestions or not but if we can get to a place of clarity and as I say to our teams all the time when we make the easy stuff easy it allows us to create space for the work to actually happen and so in the example I just shared here's what's going to happen there there were 10 people in that meeting about five of them are going to do the thing that the leader asked um with varying degrees of success because there was no Clarity on what it should look like and the other half won't and then the leader who is a highly paid executive is now going to be chasing team members down to get a thing that she was unclear about what it looks like and when it's due and that leads to employee frustration leader frustration and to your point folks being really burned out so Clarity is a huge huge Factor accountability comes up in conversations all the time with the CEOs and key Executives I work with um and it's interesting because you hit the nail on the head a lot of times they're not setting clear enough expectations up front with their people but they think they are in their mind what they said was clear as day um and there's a big mismatch there so how do you coach leaders um other than saying Friday at four instead of you know ASAP or any of that to really make sure they're being clear in their expectations yeah so it's a great question and just to your previous point about the accountability thing it becomes almost impossible to hold people accountable when what you've asked them is unclear and so I I work with leaders all the time and it sounds like you do as well where they they want coaching around holding their teams accountable but that's not the first step in almost every case the first step in almost every case is what you just asked me which is like let's get to a place of deep Clarity right around what we care about and so or around like this specific ask and so to your question we go macro first what do we care about as an organization what are we trying to accomplish or as a team um what matters here how are we going to agree to operate and then we start to get into more granular um instances right and so there's everything from role play where I provide somebody with or scenario practice right provide somebody with an unclear scenario and have them revise it to get to a place of actual Clarity to your point about like the thing that seems kind of clear hey do me a favor send that to me this week and we can get to a much clearer place when they start to script out their own language and then there's shadowing as well so I Shadow a lot of leaders in team meetings uh and in uh in one-to-one meetings and I take you know meticulous notes and we look at them after and in some cases they've not been out of the park and they've provided real Clarity for the team in some cases they haven't we revised those they always follow up with the person and say hey my apologies and that's key here is that the leader is owning right like the leader is owning I didn't communicate this effectively right I am not talking about the employee who just who doesn't care about the workplace at all that's a different conversation I am talking about the employees who care about work and want to be there but they just don't know what's expected of them and I coach leaders to own that 100 this is on me it's not on you it's my fault if we only had five out of 10 people do the thing I wasn't clear in my expectations that's unfair to you I'm going to get clearer right now yeah it's interesting when you self-analyze because I mean we're in the exact same boat I'm guessing you're probably better at the most coaching others but you still do it two is like when things go wrong I always go back and I'm like did I give good instructions a lot of times I did but often it's so clear that I did not give very good instructions and I thought that whenever I wrote it I was just that clear so I think even that reflection exercise well and Aviva to your point A lot of times we have been really clear but what's missing is some some kind of accountability on the back end right so um and and you know sometimes this is a shop with uh for Leaders with whom I work because it feels like it's a lot of extra time but the amount of time it seems in the long run right so if you're if you're if you're managing a team and you tell everybody that they need to send you X Thing by Friday at 5 PM um the leader has that on their calendar as well and Friday at 5 PM they look at who sent it and who hasn't and they're following up with the people who haven't not in an unkind way not in like you're in trouble way but hey Michael um you know the such and such was due at 5 p.m today I haven't gotten it from you um tell me what's going on how can I support you what when can you commit to having this and when we include those pieces on the back end uh we send a message to folks that like hey what we say here really matters and that there's gonna that this thing has some teeth I mean employees have so many competing priorities in the workplace you know a lot of times leaders will be I can't believe they didn't do this I can't believe they didn't do that I'm like hey man like they have a lot going on like they have a lot of work to do and so you've got to make sure that the stuff you're asking of them assuming it's important which it should be um that it has a certain level of teeth to it to make sure that it gets done yeah even an openness when you're setting the dates to say you know priority concern here you need to let me know like that's why I'm setting a date so I can change it exactly exactly yeah hey just here's what here's one I'd like this but tell me does that work for your schedule hey you know what Michael Wednesday at noon's not going to work for me because I have X Y and Z I could do Thursday 2 p.m awesome do me a favor send an invite put it on both of our calendars right now reach out to me along the way if you need any support on it um but this stuff like if even I just if I could just say like this is like and you've seen this too in your work like the conversation that we're having right now a lot of leaders like it makes them cringe they don't want to be in the weeds to this level right and by the way the the Visionary CEO may not be but the person that they manage needs to be with the team or the person that that person manages like somebody needs to be at this level of granularity but it makes folks cringe oftentimes folks some folks they've started a business because they have a great idea where they have a great product so they have like a vision to like change like the world or change you know change people's experience and they and they say to me like I don't I don't want to be sending email invites to people I get it I get it but you you know one of my favorite Expressions is you get what you get and if you're gonna leave your team to operate on their own and however in whatever way they think is best you're gonna get the results that that come from that which in some cases could be solid but overwhelmingly it's not right you can't have 50 people operating in 50 different ways and expect that you're going to get to a place of uh at least ultimate success no and you're right strong Visionaries this is very anti the way their brains even function and work that's when you put support around you you have a really strong EA or chief of staff who can sit there and make sure that they are doing the integration piece right so it's a matter of knowing your strengths as a leader too if if this is truly not you um then you need to supplement it make sure someone's doing it otherwise um you're impacting your team and their success yeah and what happens I love your point there because what happens is sometimes those Visionary leaders will say because they're uncomfortable doing this that I don't care about this stuff right I've had leaders say things to me I don't care if people come to meetings on time really do your partners feel the same way if you're if more people on your team walked into a meeting with one of your partners 15 minutes late would you be okay with that of course you wouldn't of course you care if people come on time of course you care if they meet deadlines you're just not comfortable holding them accountable to that we're setting those expectations so let somebody else do it you focus on the big picture you focus on raising money you focus on the dollars and cents or the product or whatever it is let somebody on the team step in there because if you don't have that frustration starts to rise you talked about or like or like earlier like what where does the burnout come from I'm frustrated I don't know how to operate here Aviva hasn't sent me the thing that's it's holding me up but when was it even due like I finally get it it doesn't look the way I'm I think it's supposed to look and now there's a bunch of like kind of like infighting or back and forth or employee to employ frustration when it could totally be fixed not not 100 because we're talking about human beings here working be fixed with real clear expectations on the phone so my shift gears a little bit I know you are a data guy and you look at all the metrics um when it comes to culture what does the data say about how happy people are or not happy they are at work right now yeah I mean the most recent study I saw had nine out of 10 people this currently dissatisfied at work and 65 percent of the current Workforce actively looking for other jobs that is staggering and they're I mean there's data you know I mean there's a stat I saw recently it might have been from Forbes but like that 75 of leaders think that they are inspiring their teams but only about 27 of their teams agree right so that disconnect between like who I think I am and how I think I show up for my people and who they think I am and how they think they show up for them is a real real um it was a really powerful step well those are really scary statistics if you think about it um yeah but you but like listen go to a family Barbecue and ask people about work I mean honestly like for everybody watching this like I go to a family Barbecue the next time everybody I ask ask five people about work hey how's work how's it going how's your boss the things that you'll hear oh he's an idiot you know like she has no idea what I do all day and she's a waste she's a waste of like and the my favorite which is is the like the ultimate for me indictment uh sounds like this um he's okay he leaves me alone right we've gotten to this place of like for so many people my boss cannot provide value for me I don't I don't care what they say I am better off in fact I'm best off if they simply leave me alone and that I can tolerate what a horrible miss that that is that I mean it's just huge lack of alignment within the company right feeling that way they're not listening to the goals and the objectives or hearing you know that is a really scary thought to think about the statistics and just the example you just gave at a barbecue yeah yeah it's true it's crazy it's crazy um you know to turn that around is it just the leader investing in some of the things we've been talking about or it seems like it would take a whole lot more than what we've been talking about to fix those kinds of statistics culture changes are huge is a huge piece it's why most people are it's like a huge lift which is why most people are either bad at it or don't even try it and it's just chalk up like hey this is just how it is here and if people want to leave they can leave um as I as I mentioned earlier it starts with like the macro with like defining the stuff but this is all an execution piece of Eva this is this is about doing the things day to day you know week to week month to month that are going to reinforce the different things we believe I was I was talking about one of my mentors and a CEO friend um when he was leading his most recent team or maybe a couple teams ago he wouldn't park in the spot that was designated for him right next to the um right next to the the front door instead he gave that to the employee of the month and they had different metrics for how that employee of the month was determined he parked in the furthest spot away from the um from the door and then walked to the parking lot every morning before anyone got there and picked up any trash that we saw in the parking lot um and threw it in the garbage because in his mind my employees deserve to to to to show up to an environment that is pristinely clean that is that is immaculate on that I'm setting the table for the great work we're going to do together a lot of leaders think stuff like that is beneath them but that that gesture even if nobody knows about it is is is worth a hundred whole tables or 100 gift cards um so it's really about the execution of it is it am I willing and am I able to do this to do the things day after day the that are that are gonna that are gonna make the shift the little things responding to emails quickly right checking with people hey how's your daughter's soccer game this weekend like those types of things they change culture um when they when they happen consistently yeah so let me ask you kind of the deep-seated number one question of the day yeah culture is so important to the success of a company and yet we have the statistics you're talking about why are more leaders not investing in their cultures yeah I mean I think it um it's a couple of things one is that um there are leaders who think that um you know it's not it's not me um it's not my responsibility I've told them they were hired here they're well paid they need to figure it out it's the wrong attitude leaders tell me all the time they'll be like I you know I've told my team 100 times not to do this thing and they keep doing it I'm like thank you for telling me that you are both easy to ignore and um not terribly um not terribly convincing great let's work on those things right and so it's all about like that initial piece is ownership is understanding that like I'm the lever here one of our mantras on our teams is everything that happens on your team uh is on you you've either created it or you're allowing it to exist and so getting folks to that place of understanding that you are the lever is usually a challenge for a lot of people who don't think that they are and think that a lot of this stuff happens by Magic it's hard work it sometimes doesn't feel like the work because the returns aren't immediate and so it's much easier for me to hop on a sales call and close that deal than it is to have like lots of personal conversations with the team to Shadow them while they're working to be really clear in my you know in my evaluation or my feedback to them so it doesn't feel like there's immediate return on it and so a lot of leaders would rather just put their head down and do the work uh do their own work um leaders tell me that all the time I see you're basically telling me that you're too busy driving to stop for gas that's going to catch up to you really soon right um but then the last piece is what I mentioned earlier there's a discomfort in doing it there's a discomfort in saying in in looking somebody in the team on the uh it's looking to somebody on your team in the eye whether it's over Zoom or in person and saying hey um I want to apologize um I I communicated that ass way too late and I did not set you up for Success um that is my fault and I I will do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again but thank you for still delivering a home run I'm not surprised but I just want you to know how appreciative I am like that is hard for a lot of people to do um and we haven't built that as like a muscle but you do that to somebody who you've communicated late to or who you've made their life like harder because like you haven't like provided Clarity I want from something supposed to look like or you know you um you know even things like I talked to somebody the other day who like they're 11 A.M their 11 A.M meeting starts at 11 20. because the CEO doesn't roll in until then so everybody's like waiting for the CEO to come in there's no apology there's no like um there's no like here's why I need to tell you all about this so then the 11AM a.m meeting goes late so now everybody's late for the rest of the day to everything they have so there are some people on the team who just become okay with everything we do here is going to be late even for our partners and there are some people who are miserable it's churning them up inside but the leader needs to do two things there they need to come on time to the freaking meeting and they also need to apologize when they're late and if they're going to go late they're going to they're going to ask everyone's permission and I know it sounds crazy because CEOs often they're like I'm the boss I don't have to yeah you do because there might be something that somebody has at 12 noon that day that is really important it's integral for the work that you all are doing and it matters immensely for that to get started on time so something that sounds like hey folks it is 11 59 we've got about 15 more minutes worth of stuff here do me a favor just show a hands who who can hang out for the remaining 15 minutes and if you have something that's urgent step out I will personally catch you up like that conversation goes a million miles for the employees it just does the strike a chord we just got a heart while you were talking great I'm glad to hear it you know it's interesting because I listened to all of those things and it's hard and it's uncomfortable um you know to be a great leader um you know but one of the things you said stood out actually was one of our behaviors of my whole company but get what you tolerate right like yeah you know if you allow things to go on then they're going to continue to go on if you set the stage for it to be different then it will be different and um I think that's very hard to take that kind of ownership as a leader um but very necessary um I love your example of um going back and saying I'm sorry for setting a deadline too quickly close to you know assignment um I can't tell you I think so many people would be like just shocked if there's that like like so taken aback right and it's it's so we haven't normalized this and so then leaders don't do it because it feels uncomfortable I mean think about for a lot of people's their relationship with their with their own with their own Partners or with their own family right I mean it's usually oh yeah they know I love them I don't need to like tell them like I mean looking somebody in the eye and having like that personal connection just goes so far and um especially when you've made a mistake well even if you don't think you've made a mistake but like the results haven't uh the results aren't what you've expected you can own that hey I thought I was clear on this um I I obviously I wasn't and so I apologize for that let me reset those expectations here we need a b and c things to happen is that clear oh great okay my apologies again when's our next deadline and you can absolutely have those conversations with folks you mentioned earlier the word micromanagement yeah I'm curious um what your thoughts on micromanagement are and if you ever hear concerns about this constant follow-up kind of attitude is leading to or being micromanagement yeah so I I love this question because I think micromanagement is mostly a made-up word um it is I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of leaders over the last two decades I've met one one who met my definition of a micromanager uh who was involved in things they had no business being involved in who was like pouring over people's emails and looking at the language that they were using and like you know 10 10 10 or 12 Communications with one single employee in a single day what people the I think that the word micromanagement is a term that employees made up um to describe the feeling of and I'm not I'm not blaming employees it's coming back to leaders but to describe the feeling of I don't know what matters here on Monday we operate like X on Tuesday we operate like y on Wednesday we operate like Z my boss is is sometimes here sometimes gone I'm not talking about physically like you know whether it's mentally or whatever and then I get random random misaligned feedback from this person when they don't really know what I'm working on and I haven't and they and and I haven't seen them in two months and that feels micro managing to people that feels like hey get off my back our our Norm here whether folks would articulate this or not our Norm here is that you leave us alone and we do our jobs and so now you want to know what I'm working on and that's where that term micromanagement comes from but like employees I shared that stat with you earlier 91 of the workplace wants more accountability they want it right your employer these are smart they see when somebody walks into your new meeting at 1208 and if you don't say anything to them right as the leader to that person whether it's in private or as a whole group you've sent the message to all the people who are there on time um hey you're an idiot because you came on time because Michael can come at 1208 and I'm not going to say anything to him right and so what starts to happen is people say oh uh other rules here differently for Michael then for us maybe I should start coming in whenever I want right they start to get annoyed they start to feel like there's a lack of consistency they don't feel like they're in safe trusted hands and so I I've seen I've seen very few examples of employees who haven't thrived and been thrilled when we go from a place of we're not really sure what matters here to a place of like here's how we operate here's what matters and here's how I'm going to follow up to make make sure you're successful so you coach leaders and work with companies who come from kind of this more chaotic state to getting to this more organized very clear expectation State and from what I was hearing before about micromanagement it seems like employees in that transition will feel micromanaged until they realize on the other side that it's actually solving their problems how do you coach leaders to handle the conversations about the transition to solve for some of that feeling micromanagement yeah for the first thing is is folks have to and by the way the employees know that there's a problem like nobody's like no nobody thinks in a place where the culture is doesn't have to be chaotic where it's just not that strong employees are totally aware this starts with again leader ownership and a leader saying hey whether they say I'm working with a coach or not who cares but they say hey um I have not done a great job and you know whether this is uh you know team-wide or or you know organization-wide or it's ideally better if it's not in an email but there's some message that sounds like hey I have not done a good job providing X Y and Z for you all um as a result of that our results are ABC um anecdotally people have told me you know um you know blah blah blah um and uh our most recent survey results show um you know severe gaps in these multiple categories that is unfair to you um and that is entirely on me um and so I am um shifting my leadership style and I'm going to commit to doing whatever is providing more clarity and more accountability more follow-up coaching Etc um it uh and you can expect it to look like this um during that process like there might be some Growing Pains I'm asking for you to embody our value of whatever um continuous Improvement um to uh during that process and to let me know to communicate with me if there's anything that I do as we make this transition that doesn't feel great for you um that feels like you are being micromanaged or um that feels like you know it's just not aligned to the way we the way we do things here because I want your feedback so I can be better for all of us now that doesn't fix everything but holy cow if you do that what a difference right what a difference but most leaders don't do it they just pivot right and there's I don't change these things I'm going to start I'm going to start holding everybody accountable and now people are that's where the micromanagement thing comes from is like wait hold on did you not now it matters like that we do things on time now it matters that we do things a certain way and it really gets under it gets under employees skin yeah there's a big difference in that explanation and transition versus just doing because just doing is dramatic and probably paramedic too that's right that's right that's right yeah yeah um so I think that's a great example I mean everybody kind of enough if you're making changes in your business what a great way to explain you know how those changes and why those changes are occurring um that's an awesome example um well I appreciate you being a guest today I ask all my guests one final question on this show um that has nothing to do with culture um but what is something out of your comfort zone that you have never done before and might want to try that's a great question so before we went live you were talking about your experiences skydiving and hang gliding and I told you that no chance am I doing either of those um because I I fly a lot for work as I was joking with you before the call I Fly a lot for work and I only fly I only go up in the air when I have to go somewhere and not for fun but um I have a friend who is um he's invited me to climb Mount Kilimanjaro with him and uh I am um I'm debating it and I want to do it I am um I am worried to get to 17 000 feet and be oxygen deprived and be you know thousands and thousands of miles away from my house and be up on a mountain so I am I am nervous about it and I think I'm probably gonna do it in the next couple years so that's uh that's my thing awesome my coaching week had me starting to think to ask you so what's holding you back but you hadn't answered the question before I could even answer it but I hope you do Hannah please let me know I'd love to hear all about it uh phenomenal I will I am putting um Michael and I's contact info in the comments right now so if anyone wants to get a hold of Michael you know how um please reach out so much for joining me today it's truly been an honor to have you as a guest on my show um thank you to everyone who joined us live um until next time on beyond the comfort zone I encourage all of my viewers to try something new outside your comfort zone because that's where growth occurs and Life Begins have a great day everyone bye everyone thank you