[Music] foreign [Music] here we are I'm beyond the comfort zone welcome everybody um this is a show that helps you step out of your comfort zone into a place of growth and learning and as just demonstrated I get to grow and learn every time I do one of these episodes um for those of you who are joining us for the first time I'm Aviva Wilmer and I'm a vistage chair here in Atlanta Georgia I lead three groups of incredibly driven and ambitious CEOs who won't accelerate towards their goals faster in addition I facilitate a group of growth oriented key Executives who are dedicated to driving transformative change within their organizations our peer groups are Mastermind collectives where members come together regularly to share ideas and experiences and support one another one thing I've always learned is that no matter how many years you have of experience your knowledge is kept by the experience that you have and your experiences are still limited you don't know what you don't know because you haven't been exposed to it yet and that's why a peer environment can be an invaluable opportunity to explore the unknown be more proactive and make better decisions by leveraging Collective wisdom and others diverse perspectives then you can achieve more than you ever probably would on your own Our Guest today is Amy K Hutchins Amy K is an international award-winning speaker she's an Amazon number one best-selling author of the books the secret leaders keep it and get it five steps to the sex salary and success you want and as she has 23 plus years experience training and coaching clients such as Whole Foods the Home Depot here in Atlanta Starbucks Canada Expedia and hundreds more ABK is the founder of the global self leadership platform www.shegetsit.com and shares with leaders how to confidently and confidently navigate their toughest conversations Amy K received her Ms from Johns Hopkins University and has been featured as a guest on numerous TV radio and print networks including Bloomberg entrepreneur USA Today U.S news enrolled report NBC and ABC so much so that that's a mouthful um and she resides in San Diego with her favorite human I love the way she wears this in her bio Scott and their Bulldog moves so Amy hey I am so excited to have you on my show today um and to talk to everyone about being beyond their comfort zone welcome thank you thanks for having me Aviva it's fun it's fun to have these conversations especially with all that's going on in the world today um I'm gonna ask everybody to put and chat everybody's who here with us this is interactive see if you have questions today post them but we're about to talk about communication this is something we all can relate to um what is your biggest challenge in communication so start popping those in to chat for us um let me know while you're doing that okay I'm curious just from a background standpoint heard you started off as an elementary school teacher and now you're speaking around the globe so um before we hop into communication can you share a little bit about how you got from there to here yeah there's a there's a through thread in there of teaching but if you'd asked me 25 years ago you know do you think you'll ever like own your own business and travel around the world I'm an elementary school teacher and that's the fun fact so started off in Washington DC became a teacher in our international school system so not Department of Defense but if you were a foreign passport holder if you were Nike or Coca-Cola overseas your kids had to go to school somewhere so our international school system is quite large I was in Shanghai for three years then I went corporate I moved to London and I worked for a billion dollar beauty company and even though I can't cut hair and I can't color hair the ponytail is hard I still joke I was involved on the sales side in education so I was still teaching and training how to become profitable how to grow how to scale and then from there I started my own growth and sales training company which morphed into leadership training and Consulting and keynote speaking and then I started that company almost 23 years ago so 23 years ago this December and so what I love I still love and that's teaching so whether it's our online platform like she gets it or it's a keynote speech or it's a being a consultant it's just I love that little Epiphany that goes off when you get that new insight that new idea on how to play better it just warms the cockles of my heart it's awesome so kind of getting to the Crux of communication in my mind the tough conversation yeah you're all about having them I'm curious though why do we as humans avoid them so much well I think there's a lot of reasons but I think that while I get so fired up about this Aviva is that I really believe and I've been preaching for a long time that the life that we want the results that we desire they're on the other side of that tough conversation so whether that's a tough conversation with a client or a prospect a spouse a significant other a kid or ourselves you know we need to have it and I think that one of the things that I can just say from all of my coaching clients over the years is that most of us don't even know how to get it started we're so afraid of the unintended consequence of making matters worse of not getting the results of what we want that we avoid the conflict and so the cost of that's enormous right there's a huge financial cost to that but there's also the duress and the emotional toll and the head space and the energy drain of not having it and so I just believe that most of us are avoiding them because we're not even sure how to get it started and we really don't want to make things worse than they already are so I spend a lot of time working with senior Executives on here's how you're going to frame it here's how you're going to walk through it to really help you feel more confident about starting it in the first place what tips would you give the everyday person who has that tough conversation they know about um to Think Through in order to get it started so I'm a big fan of communicating to connect I'm really known for that and what I mean by that is if you're communicating to connect with somebody you're both going to leave stronger because of that conversation doesn't mean you're gonna you know necessarily agree and that everybody's going to be like oh that was rainbows and unicorns it just means that I'm feeling stronger because of this exchange I feel seen I feel heard I feel understood and so one of the first things that I tell leaders is we're going to lead this conversation with a soft heart and a firm spine and what I mean by that is sometimes we go in and we're so blustery like we come in with that hard front that it's like then we have to Cave or acquiesce down the road because we were too strong but if we could come in with that soft heart and firm spine then it's like okay I'm going to listen to you empathically I'm going to use my empathic intelligence skills I'm going to be sensitive I'll be perceptive about how this Dynamic is going but I might have some boundaries I might have some firm offers and requests that I need from you and all of that occurs because you took the time to prepare prior to that conversation setting your intention and then I'm uh we'll get into this I'm sure but I love to start that tough conversation with a how might we question in the workplace so if you're upset with somebody's performance as well how might we make you a more integrated successful team player you know how might we get back on track versus just we need to talk which of course makes everybody feel defensive so I like that intro so let's go there so when it comes to that tough conversation starting with how might we um what does that do how does that defuse the situation well there's a psychological component to that like there's several and how might we with something I started using in the late 80s when I started teaching Elementary School and so and then now use it at Harvard by the way in their Innovation classes when they teach this in their business school one of the things that's fascinating about how might we is think about the psychological play of we in other words your voice matters this isn't me dictatorily telling you what we're gonna do this is me asking for your input we're going to co-create the future together and I'm going to reduce the burden of coming up with a decision for the be-all end-all solution today because we're just exploring we're just ideating it's about how might we and so I'm opening it up I'm literally as I say I'm lower in the defenses I'm lowering the shoulders to say let's solve this and answer this question together and so that's just kind of the psychological play right off the bat so kind of the geeky part of me the neurology part of me says when the brain is more relaxed when we have levels of oxytocin when we've got greater levels of dopamine we're actually able to ideate more and so when people are stressed and anxious their brain does not wire in the same way chemically or neurologically as it does when we're feeling open we're feeling flexible we're feeling like okay I can actually participate in this conversation bless you I can see you Caesar bless you and so one of the things that I think that's so important is to remember that when we're having these tough conversations a lot of emotions are showing up and we need to actually take that into account okay how do you help the other person in the conversation feel heard yet get your point across well it's it's not rocket science but it is listening and it's really really important and so what often happens in tough conversations is you get the hey your agenda my agenda oh you know you oh yeah you me and so what we're we're almost way too focused on ourselves so what I often say is the very first thing that you're going to do with your agenda is get prepared in the form of questions and then really ask a question to listen so let's just say you've responded before I respond to what you've actually just said I'm gonna take the opportunity to summarize not um not repeat verbatim not pair it back but really summarize and then validate it so I might say something on the lines of you know Aviva it sounds like you're frustrated am I hearing you correctly were you frustrated and you're like yeah I was frustrated and it sounds like it was a miscommunication and so if I hear you correctly you know what you're looking for is and what I'm doing is is I'm not I'm not reacting to you with my own agenda I'm taking the moment to show you that I've heard you I've understood you what you're saying makes sense and then now I'm gonna come forward with my own thoughts my own perspective my own experience to listening to understand absolutely but I think that we say that and it's a buzz phrase how you do it is actually honoring the person by taking the moment to repeat back again not verbatim but to say hey I'm hearing you am I hearing you correctly am I getting it all is there any more oh that makes sense to me well then from there now I'm going to come back to share my own experience but that's that's different than just saying oh I get it hmm in one person using the tools you teach the shape of a conversation even though the other person hasn't been taught the tools to come play the game yes absolutely because while I can't force the other person to use the tools that they may even be ignorant to the fact that I'm changing my behavior has the consequence of impacting and influencing yours and so oftentimes like with leaders one of the things that I'll talk about is that when you practice self-awareness we're all we're all familiar with this when you can stay neutral when you can stay less triggered when you can stay calm and respond thoughtfully and not reactively you change the tone and tenor of that conversation and therefore you change the outcome and again this is realistic optimism I'm not saying that it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns but what's fascinating is is the more centered that I stay the more grounded that I am is as Elizabeth lesser would say she's the founder of the Omega Institute she's like Do no harm and take no it's like right if you go in with that attitude of I'm really going to respect you and listen to you and hold steady with my expectations that's very different than getting triggered so it's all about really staying centered staying present and trying to hold off the emotional triggers that usually happens that's one critical component the other I think is really preparing to bring the bigger bad or better Bolder questions to the conversation and so a lot of times um in coaching calls people will prepare and they're like oh yeah I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready and you're smart like we're all the people who are listening to this are successful leaders you can wing it a lot of the time but when you've got that critical conversation on the horizon I don't want you to wing it because it often comes back to bite you in the butt so you know my response is prepare to about what it is that you want to say in this conversation don't script it but just prepare and then really what are you looking for as an outcome not for forever but just in this conversation what are you hoping to like move the needle on so you talk a lot about preparing um and I've heard you mentioned questions multiple times what types of questions do you advise your people to come prepared with what does that look like it's not rocket science but it is neuroscience and so it's the idea of the open-ended question so it's the idea of you're leaning in to put the onus of the critical thinking back on the other person so one of the things we often talk about in sales is this fabulous implication question called what happens when just a magical phrase too so if you're talking to your child you know what happens when you forget your permission slip what happens when you forget your lunch or your jacket and so instead of nagging somebody you put the critical thinking back on them so oh yeah I won't be able to go on the field trip if I forget my permission slip or I'm going to go hungrier I'm gonna have to borrow money from a friend if I forget my lunch it's no different in the workplace if you're like hey what happens when we double book or or we don't keep a clear calendar or what happens when we run out of storage space and so you're just asking that person to raise their level of critical thinking the other thing that I think that's really great about questions is you attend to avoid more making false assumptions so like you let's say you say something and then I'm like I I think I'm interpreting it correctly but maybe I'm not so the minute that I say well help me understand what was the thought behind that decision or you know how are you hoping that I respond to to what you're asking for I'm really just putting that critical thinking back on you as I gather more Intel before I respond thoughtfully it was a chance and chance basically to digest and listen more as well well you keep them talking and Diving deeper yes and and I mean how many times have we all like we reacted too quickly and then we're like Oh I thought you were about to say something else or I interpret it differently than what you actually meant so if we can slow down just long enough and be like Oh Aziza tell me more about that you know what was your thinking behind that decision I'm ingesting and digesting that information to again respond more thoughtfully yeah coming from a coaching background myself I will say tell me more is a really great phrase because sometimes you don't know the next question especially if you are listening really well you have to think through um to come up with the next right question it's not as simple as that that's exactly right and I think that sometimes too when people are nervous or they're stressed or they're anxious or frustrated they'll share a piece but they don't share all of it and then we respond to a piece that becomes this like rabbit hole that we didn't even need to go down if we just given them a little chance to give it more context also fun too that silence is not a bad thing sometimes for a minute that pause and uh people like should I be saying more and then they just start talking again anyway it's so true it's great I love I love the power of the boss I'm right there with you so coming back more to today than just general communication there's a lot of talk about culture um Innovation creativity remote hybrid all kinds of things around conversations and communication um how do we use our communication to impact creativity Innovation and business growth and I'm also going to throw out there and add to it in a remote hybrid and in-person environment because I think it creates new twists in our day-to-day challenges yeah so just just to double down on a couple things I think that you know there's a lot of angles to come at growth but let's just do a couple a quick ones so I was just in Toronto I was given a keynote on gender equity and one of the things that I was encouraging all them to have is let's have that conversation about what are we doing right now that's working for gender Equity you know what what are we already feeling success on what are our objectives around it what are we going to do more of or in addition to to Really expand our impact we've have got certain facts we know from Accenture and McKinsey just to name a few that women on boards have more higher net margins we know that companies as they say in the UK were Innovative when they've got women involved so again it's just then where's that conversation of how might we expand and really a double down on our own practices toward gender Equity so that was just an example of growth right there but then on a sales team we do a ton of sales training and so I'll often say how might we Define an ideal client what are the characteristics of an ideal client partnership you know do we really fully understand our demographic and how has the world impacted that you know hashtag shift happens so what shifts are our customers experiencing that we can become an even more value-add partner those are all just question driven conversations that say we want to grow we want to add more value we want to become better partners for our customers and make whether it's a product or a service that's more valuable in their eyes that actually gets them an Roi and so those are the fun conversations that to me drive business and I go back I have a mantra I've been saying this for like 30 years but life happens one conversation at a time whether that's at work at home three o'clock in the morning with me myself and I and so as Leaders if we take responsibility for bringing those bigger better betterbolder questions to the conversation we're going to drive higher levels of critical thinking and problem solving and that's that sweet spot where you start to grow exponentially awesome I love the phrase just listening to you use it now the how might we again um you know as you're trying to drive people to think about things differently and get that conversation started it's a really great intro I love it I love that question um you know so I'm listening to you right because you know how my we've used a couple phrases already in here I'm like oh I like these phrases I gotta write them down um so I'll say yeah you've got quite the magical phrases well conversations are just words you seem to have lots of these um do you have a list somewhere magical phrases we should be using um and you know other ones that we should be thinking about are solve conflict or set boundaries yeah you know it's so funny I've I've even the truth is is that I've collected these magical phrases because I always wished I'd had them after the fact so I was like you know you learn the hard way you're like do you know either I put my foot in my mouth or I didn't know what to say and six hours later I was like oh this is what I should have said and so I now have hundreds of them and one of the things that I love is that there are like I call them like my top my top 25 my top 25 favorites and I'll just give you another example of the we've talked about how might we we've talked about what happens when the implication question another one that I love is the help me understand um how are you hoping that I respond to this and that's that's a fabulous phrase again when somebody is upset or they're being really difficult like they're being challenging but it's not across your arms I always have to say this it's not the Cross Your Arms how are you hoping that I respond to that it's it's the very gracious again soft heart of saying hey you know Aviva how are you hoping I respond to this information um and and so that's a powerful one the other one that I love I always share this when I give a keynote is a part of me and the reason that I love this is because it changes high tension conversations to more of a connection so we tend to talk in absolute we tend to say I'm angry I'm frustrated I'm disappointed and all that other person hears is oh Amy K is a hundred percent whatever that negative or sensitive emotion was and so people get really defensive and they're like oh well I'm gonna have to you know like protect myself the minute that I say a part of me is frustrated a part of me is concerned a part of me is disappointed like whatever your whatever you're feeling that's sensitive when you lead with a part of me psychologically what you've just told and energetically what you've just communicated on that frequency level of interaction is I'm making room for other more positive less sensitive emotions such as respect you know such as hope and so I was I was joking because in the pandemic my dad participated in a zoom keynote that I gave you he's like this little secret Watcher and so afterwards he's like oh a partisan he loves you and I was like no no that's not how it works like positive emotions you want a hundred percent right like I love you emphatically so we still laugh about that to this day but he was trying so hard to get it right and I think that that tells you though how much we benefit when we have communication skills I mean we can go do a Toastmasters on how to give a Public Presentation Nancy Duarte wrote a beautiful book on how to put your slidology together for a TED Talk what we don't have is the how do I resolve conflict with a best friend how do I you know show up and hold my own in a meeting where I'm not the highest person in the hierarchy or the org chart you know how do I use my voice at work when somebody takes my idea and those are the ones that to me are game changers to advance your career your relationships your life and so that's why I get so fired up about it you definitely have magic phrases no doubt about it I am curious since I know you're a Vestige member and you can relate to my world a little bit um how do some of those phrases play when trying to process issues or help groups be more effective in really diving deep into the issues like a vistage group does yeah so um I used to bleed teal if I some days I still do and that's that's the vistage logo color for those of you who did I I was a member for eight years and my favorite part and I say this so genuinely because I've been a speaker for visage for 20 something years but my favorite part was the executive processing component of the day where we would really go through the issues and to me the magical phrases are beautiful because you're expanding the thinking you know you're harnessing that collective intelligence around the room that diversity and it's all that diversity that allows you to think through a problem find that better solution and then go execute it and so the magical phrase is of I'm curious I love that to just say I'm curious about whatever it is because what you're really doing is you're leaning into the tell me more expand this versus judging it right the other thing that I I loved about my group was that we were very careful about the Lexicon that we brought to that table and what I mean by that is we weren't allowed to say hey Aviva what's your opinion on that because the opinion wasn't important as the experience and so we would say Aviva what's your experience around this you know what what have you what have you gone through what what have you had is the Dignity of your Human Experience around this particular Challenge and that strangely enough that changes the way that people answer that question because an opinion is sort of lazy like I do is my opinion but if I say what's your experience with that what would you add to this conversation to that we haven't asked kind of that Socratic question what are we missing that was another thing that we used to ask we would go Socratic well Socrates is really known for what am I missing and so we would do that question as well that really ratchets up the critical thinking and the problem-solving process like that that's a good question I'm going to integrate it into my group yay good the new is worth asking um you were saying how do I a lot and that just immediately triggers issue processing to me um so kind of back to the tough conversations yeah you know I worked with lots of CEOs they're leaders you know in organizations and they have to deliver tough news um especially in the past few years that there's been a lot of tough news to deliver what is the best way to deliver that news either to a person on the team or a team as a whole I'm I'm a big fan of transparency and and I go back to that Stockdale Paradox of realistic optimism I just think that that's classic so I've I've seen I've seen the leaders that like go all Pollyanna like there's nothing wrong and you're like okay I don't really want that cheerleading cyst Boombah but I've also seen the leaders that are doom and gloom and that doesn't help either so there's this beautiful sort of sweet spot of I'm gonna be transparent I'm going to be realistic about what we're hoping for I'm going to be optimistic about it but I'm also going to be definitive in my word choice so for instance I'll give you the example a lot that we were teaching in the pandemic is here's our plan when the Intel or the information changes we will reassess our plan as appropriate and this is what we're going forward with now in other words again I'll be flexible but this is not an option like this is what we're doing we're doing it for a certain time period I'm realistically hopeful that this will happen or that we'll be able to execute it for a while but I'm also willing to adapt and I encourage uh leaders to talk about that adjustability quotient the AQ of how how quickly can we change with the least amount of discomfort possible but I'm gonna word it in such a way that I'm going to confidently say these are my expectations now and I will modify them as we go but I think that it's really important I mean we've all we've all witnessed that leader that comes in and they're so definitive or they they over exaggerate or they under exaggerate and you're sort of like you've missed the mark like I now have I'm now filled with more cynicism and doubt had you just been transparent and and to use kind of a trite word but with the original definition and intent and been authentic you would have gotten far more alignment from us faster so being authentic and transparent again I like some of the phrases that you're using there to help keep people in the loop and the way to think about adaptability versus being but I'd say some leaders come across as wishy-washy because they don't want to commit because they don't commit to the wrong thing um and I think that there's and that's an understandable concern right you know I'm going to try to please everybody I'm also you know I don't want my word to go down on a stone tablet in case we need to change so to me it is that transparency of this is the plan here's the thought behind it here's how we came to this decision and then this is it going forward and we will adapt as necessary and I love using that word adapt because it means I'm committed but I'm willing to modify and tweak versus doing having to do like 180 degree pivot unless you need to but that word adapt gives you the wiggle room for that wishy-washy thing that you're feeling underneath the surface yeah it's a much stronger way to say the same exact thing um yes be saying and being more specific so I really like that um you talked about that 3am conversation with yourself um unfortunately I knew all too many of those well exactly so when you're having tough conversations with yourself connecting with yourself um what does that look like how do how do we navigate those more effectively you know it's I can only speak from my own personal experience at 3am but at 3am Aviva I do not wake up and I'm like any God you're a rock star like a girl you got the World by the tail I mean usually at 3am I don't know about your brain but my brain's like oh I can't believe I said that in 1994 right you know it's like you do all that rehash and so one of the things that's really important is to remember that we choose the story so I'll give you a classic example I travel and some sometimes the time zones are so wild and wacky that I am awake at like three o'clock in the morning and I'm super productive but there's other times when you're awake at 3am and you are doing the hash like you're doing the why is my like The Dark Night of the Soul they'll often they'll call it and so to me coming back to asking yourself is this the energy that I want to be in like why why am I bringing this back up is there a lesson that I'm reminding myself you know is there a reason why I'm being so critical about myself is there something that I'm supposed to take away and then to reflip the script and say I have learned this lesson or I'm done thinking about this you know or to move it into more positive frame and so I often joke you can't control circumstances but you can control the meaning of that circumstance you can control your thought around it and so I encourage leaders to come up with an anchoring statement so I learned this trick from a really powerful speaker named Susan and I give her full credit for it but an anchoring statement is when you say I am and you fill in like I am a loving powerful committed woman or I am a loving brilliant whatever and then you just say okay I have the story in my head it's it's negative it's backward focused is this the energy that I want to live in no okay well then let me just remind myself like I'm a powerful loving committed woman as Susan's and so you say these phrases and it sounds goofy until you do it and you realize oh my ego just needed to hear that my ego just needed to let go of this my ego just needed to know that everything's okay because your ego the ego gets a bad rap the ego if it's hijacking you can be dangerous but the ego is oftentimes just trying to protect you and so I I joke it sounds a little woo-woo but it really does work I use this a lot with my coaching clients especially with anxiety bilateral brain stimulation is fantastic and we can cross that corpus callosum and we can do that physically there's another technique too where you have to just calm down the protective Persona of the ego and let it know that it's been heard you don't want to repress it you actually want to invite it to the table let it express itself and then say okay I heard you I heard you I I so appreciate all that story it's no longer helpful because I'm a loving powerful committed woman and that little conversation at 3am can release a tremendous amount of repressed or suppressed emotion well that's great it's great therapy at 3am when you when you can't call your therapist s it sounds a lot like um you know affirmation statements or practicing gratitude the fact that it just shifts away your brain works yes because it's really to go back and just kind of use a a phrase that's really popular right now because of Joe dispenza it's it's breaking the habit of being yourself and my neurology background is you the more you repeat that story from 1994 the deeper the grooves and the ruts are in your brain wiring and so what we're trying to do is just rewire that story and say I don't need to tell myself that story anymore but that's literally breaking a neurological habit yeah it's interesting I mean and I'll get vulnerable here I was when I built my first group I now have four but um you know I almost didn't become a chair many times as a roller coaster trying to build gropes and talk to CEOs and all the conversations and uh it's affirmation statements like that that honestly got me through those roller coaster times the dips in the roller coaster and got me back to the other side so yeah my TV across from me today yeah I love it I love it so I think that I think you're just you're just put in an absolute exclamation point on the fact that and I'm not blowing smoke at you you're you're wildly successful you're super wickedly bright and yet we all have self-doubt right we all have moments and we're like I don't know if I can pull this group together and you and like thousands of Vista shares would say that and so part of it is like anybody who's in sales and by the way we're all in sales whether we're selling a product or service or an idea or trying to get our kids to put their shoes on right we're all insane sales and so to me it's just the what do we when somebody says no or we get pushback what meaning are we assigning it what energy are we giving to it and so to me as soon as you can change the story to well that person said no to being in my vistage group but that just means that there's somebody better that's coming and they gave me a chance to practice so when the even better person comes along I know how to communicate to connect in a way that's valuable exactly I love that yeah um so you've given my uh viewers today some really great tidbits phrases they can use immediately in their day to day which I love I love when there's just immediate the ability for immediate action let's put it that way um how can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more oh thank you for that so shegetsit.com is the easiest place to go it's our website shegetsit.com we have tons of free resources on the home page and then we we have masterminds every year and we have a sales Retreat coming up so if you're a woman sales leader um we'd love to invite you to participate in four days of education and then male or female the tools are great so um she gets it.com is just filled with a ton of free resources because we believe in that we really are trying to elevate and make confident communicators all over the globe awesome I will put that to you in the chat when I get back on after this since it kicked me off with the Reverb um but uh that will be there for everybody um I have one last question I ask everybody who comes on my show it has nothing to do with communication okay general what is something outside of your comfort zone that you have never done before oh probably a lot of things um I'm I I do pride myself in being outside of my comfort zone a lot I do but there's one that I've I've never been able to do and it's interesting and I think the reason it just flashed into my mind is because of the news that's going on in the world I have always been um a little scared of getting scuba certified and being underwater and going down deep and I think that that just popped into as a local fear because of everything that again is happening in our headline news but um yeah I've always been a little bit nervous about being outside of my comfort zone a thousand feet down all of the beautiful fish and amazing things you could see that you'll never see on the surface oh I know and I'm a huge fan of snorkeling and I've even had The Accidental shark come by snorkeling and I I've clearly survived and so but there is yeah there's just that something it's um and of course you know in therapy though they'd they'd probably tell me that it has to do with control and all of that and I'd be like shocker I think you definitely don't have control a thousand feet below that's for sure but um but yeah but I think that you know it's interesting just to say one more thing I think that that too ironically whether it's for me or somebody else that's Shifting the story and challenging the conversation that we have around around it even if it's just with me myself and I well thank you so much for joining me today it has truly been an honor to have you as a guest on my show um and thank you to everyone who joined us um until next time on beyond the comfort zone I encourage all my viewers to try something new outside your comfort zones um because that's where growth occurs and Life Begins have a great day everyone thank you [Music]